(AI Generated)

Welcome. We’re so happy for both of you

You can call this podcast How to Dumb Luck Your Way through a writing career. That is the, ethos by which my entire writing career has been established is, stumbling blind through everything and somehow only screwing up bits and pieces of it along the way royally.

If you only screw up a few things, I think you’re doing really well.

Back probably 20 years ago. It was one of these things where I was mentioning to of my friends, I was like, I always thought about writing a book and I must have said it one too many times at the bar cuz she finally turned to me and it was my friend Michelle.

And she was like, oh my goodness, shut up and write something. And so I was like, okay. And I wrote something that was awful. but I wrote a book. And then I found that I enjoyed the storytelling thing and just sort of picked at it and wrote a bunch of really terrible books, in sequence.

were all just adverbs and comic sands. And then, it was probably about , 2010, I wound up getting involved and , meeting some folks . And that’s when I. Started, I would say honing my craft and getting to know people who had been in the business a little while , and were like, okay, you can’t use very to pad your word count and then getting a little bit better.

I wrote something that, got rejected. 62 times finally there was Karina Press, Hey, if you’re not published, you’re not agented and you want some feedback in your first three chapters, why don’t you send it our way? I sent it over to them and it wound up that the editor who was there at the time, I had gotten to know through a friend, and we knew each other, socially through Twitter, recognized my name, read it, and the email I got back was, Hey, how would you like to publish?

Wow. Yeah. So, like I said, dumb luck. , I didn’t follow the appropriate process. And then I went to an entertainment lawyer friend who was also, , an agent and said, I’ve got a contract and you help me. And he said, Hey, would you like representation?

is how I got my first agent. And then, , had that, done through Karina. And then he retired, his junior agent took me over. And then, through a series of events I wound up January of last year, deciding to step out, and see what was out there , joined Manuscript Academy through Matt LA’s recommendation.

He said, Hey, if you can schedule the last time period during somebody’s day, have ’em rip your query apart and , they’ll might give you more than 10 minutes. , and No kidding. It was like January 31st, and I went through and I’m like, all right, what warm body is available today?

Oh, look, there’s somebody named Renee That’s her last thing. I’ll schedule, with her. And, sent it to her. , and as Renee and I a couple weeks ago when we were of doing this, she said, so, was there any reason that you picked me? I’m like, no, you were a human That was available.

it just so happened that we have clicked and that is my life story right there. was available. I mean, that’s how I wound up married too. , I found someone who was available , and didn’t have anything better going on, and she’s like, all right, you. Oh my gosh. I think , these conversations are so much fun because everyone’s story is so different and so unique and I just love this.

make it sound so easy, but if we remember the beginning of your story, it was a long time. was a lot of things going on the shelf. There’s a lot of like learning your community. There’s a lot of effort behind these encounters that seem random, but then they’re not because you’ve done your work, so, on that note, let me ask about your work.

When, , I met Josh, beekeeping was never something that I ever entertained. And when I read his proposal and it was basically a beekeeping guide of I’ve made all the mistakes so you don’t have to, I’m reading it and the voice and the writing style and everything is just very engaging.

And he made me laugh out loud on the subway, which is a no-no. In New York City, you do laugh on the subway, . So, I definitely wanted to know more about him. , and while, nonfiction is a very, very tough genre to do, you have to have a giant platform and , a lot of followers, et cetera, et cetera, which Josh likes to say how he has tens of followers and, it was a long shot, but when we had , our zoom meeting, , it was just a, good easy rapport.

, I liked his writing, I liked his voice. So I figure even if this doesn’t work , we’ll give it a shot. But it was a long shot and I knew it, but he had a lot of other things in the hopper a cozy mystery. He’s got a ya going on. So there was , a lot of things that I was willing just to take that chance.

Can you talk a little bit about rapport? Because I think this is a really underrated element of the author agent relationship. This is someone you’re gonna be calling for the next several decades, so if it’s really painful to talk with them or if you always feel like everything you say, they’re no, I don’t like that.

How about if I say it this way? No, I don’t like that . That’s gonna make everything so much harder. So how do you know you have it? Because you both clearly do. Do you remember when you’re like, yes, this is someone I wanna call for the next 10 years? Well, as you guys know, I don’t blow smoke and I like to joke around and when can take that with a straight face , and dish it back, then you have a great rapport when they get your sense of humor and you get theirs and, we’ll also have emails that if you read them out of context, you’re gonna think they’re serious.

But they’re just very funny, some of the things that we write back and forth to each other and it just gets weirder and weirder , and that’s something that , you either have it or you don’t. Other people would be offended , but you could just tell , that he gets the sense of humor and , I think that’s very important.

You have to laugh because this is a tough, tough business and there’s a lot of nos and there’s a lot of rejection. And if you can laugh, then it makes it much easier for both of us. But Josh can speak more about, you know how he knew I was the one for the moment anyway, after , he talked to me and realized , my incredible genius and then he looked me up to see what I was all about.

Renee and I , we talked for a good, 45 minutes. and as she said , it wasn’t just blowing smoke. I think that’s , to answer your question, how I knew it was a good relationship cuz , my first agent, when I had mentioned I was gonna be stepping into the query trenches again, he said, make sure that when you do this, don’t just take the first offer

really vet the person that you’re gonna be working with because it’s a business relationship, but you are gonna be almost like a marriage or like a monogamous relationship. You are gonna be having to really work with this person, and there’s gonna be a lot of trust, there’s gonna be a lot of vulnerability, and there’s gonna be a lot of, hard lines in the sand that you’re gonna have to talk through, and you wanna make sure that that person’s the right fit.

So we had our first call where, Renee had read through the query letter and then, asked to see the proposal. But we spent a good 45 minutes getting to know each other and just, Hey, Why did you write this book and why did you choose writing over say, bowling or something like that?

And like she said, I think being able to understand the give and take, I mean, I was former military, we used to say, we eat our own, and if we like you, we’re gonna give you a hard time. So , it was a good natural click. It just so happened that the first agent that I wound up chatting and connecting with happened to be someone that offered representation.

Mm-hmm. that then it wound up being a good working relationship. And it’s been a very good year. Even with some of the challenges , with the beekeeping book, where we have seen, if you are the most prominent beekeeping person on the face of the planet, , maybe. Consider Others will look at it and say, yeah, we’re just not sure how we can sell that.

And I’m sure every nonfiction author , has gone through this. Mm-hmm. And certainly for Renee, I think it was a big swing because I even told her I’m a fiction author, and I quite literally, wrote the proposal on a dare from one of my, author friends in , my former agency where I was joking about, yeah, I should write this book called Never Been Stung and Otherwise Beekeepers Tell and just talk through all the dumb stuff that I have done over the last 12 semi odd years.

And she was like, yeah, do it. I’d read that. It was like, RA right, I’m gonna do it. It worked out. But again, I went to her website and it was kinda like, oh, oh, and she doesn’t represent steampunk or westerns. Well, let’s see. Look at, let me look at my writing. Stable. Well, , I’m gonna put these to the side. Let’s see, what else does she not Okay, well I’m just gonna write it anyway and send it to her , and see what she thinks. I think that part of the rapport where, like for the steampunk Western, we even talked about it and she’s like, yeah, this might not be a good fit and that’s okay because that’s part of the working, trusting relationship.

This is such an interesting way to look at a relationship.

I knew , from knowing you Josh, that you are super quippy and so fun to be around , in our, , events and things like that. And Renee, we know the same as you. so knowing that you have a bunch of projects, we heard yesterday about this idea, and I think it was from Anne Pet, and was writing, letters to her manuscripts before she writes them, like whatever book you guys are gonna leave with, do you have an ongoing concept of where you think it’s gonna go and where you see it landing and how it’s ends up evolving?

Do you have that in your mind before you, have conversations or when you’re working Josh? Jessica, you wanna, yeah, I was wondering if it was almost like remembering your why for a project? do you have a letter to to describe what you hope this project will be in the world, why it’s important to you?

And did you talk about it that way? Or did you start with goals? Did you start with who it’s gonna help? How did you organize those thoughts? The short answer is absolutely not. I have no idea there is no plan, there’s no platform, simply sit down and come up with like with the cozy mystery, I wrote it because I thought of , the opening sentence.

It was like, okay, that could be a very interesting story to tell. So why don’t I just go ahead and write it. Honestly, I’d probably be a much more successful author if I did have a plan or an outline or a forward goal, or I wrote letters. I write spaghetti against the wall and I’m sure I wear Renee out certainly, early on when we were figuring out what’s in the stable, I’m like, okay, here’s everything that is in the works either needing edits or I’m thinking about writing. And I am sure the first few months her liver was probably very tired after reading my emails.

Cause they were all over , I mean, it’s cozy mystery. It’s ya Fantasy Pirate. It’s steampunk Western, it’s sci-fi military history. It’s non-fiction beekeeping. , it’s random all over the place. Maybe that’s a positive thing. Maybe it’s okay, well one of these has to not be awful.

Yeah. So Renee, tell us about that. So there’s a lot of energy, there’s a lot of enthusiasm, there’s a lot of spaghetti stuck everywhere. What do you do with this? What do you do with Josh? Josh, if nothing else, Josh is extremely exhausting and I feel really sorry for his wife. But you know, Josh blows up my emails constantly with updates , and new things that he’s doing or, baby steps he has taken or what he’s having for dinner.

Whatever comes to Josh’s mind, he emails it to me. So it’s kind of cool, exactly where Josh is and what he is doing at all times. Whereas some of these authors you don’t hear back how they’re making out or whatever. Josh is actually the opposite and all seriousness, , he’s a hard worker.

, when I was telling him , you need a platform, for the beekeeping thing, you have to really push yourself because as we know, authors have to do their own heavy lifting. They have to know how to market their books and whatever, , and I have to give it to him.

He just jumped on it and he looked for every opportunity that he could to try to figure out how to make his following bigger or make a bigger splash, or get others to support his book. And, it was a long shot, but he was willing to try it. And I think that’s awesome. We all know that life happens while you’re busy making plans.

So I don’t want that have writers think that because they don’t have every single thing figured out that they shouldn’t take that first step because, Josh is a good example of that. He had nothing figured out. He was told not to take the first representation that came across to him. None of it was planned out.

It was just like, oh look, there’s a breathing person and then it just turned out to be the right thing. So I think when things are ready to happen, they just fall into place and, the steampunk wasn’t gonna work out for me.

That’s a really small niche type of genre, but, the ya and the Cozy Mystery were both, bigger ideas that I can definitely do something with. So it was just waiting for that to come around. And then, reading them, I haven’t even read them, he just got them finished. I’m about to read them and then , we’ll make our plan from there.

You don’t have to have every single thing figured out, just take the first step and then take the next step after that. , and sometimes your first book is not your first book. Sometimes your first book is your third book because you write something else. So maybe his cozy mystery comes out and it’s a big hit.

Maybe his ya hits next, and then maybe that crazy steampunk western thing that he wrote. We’ll be like, Hey, we want more Josh. And then that comes out. So eventually it all just shakes out in the end. Renee, what advice do you have for authors who, like Josh, are very motivated?

Writing a lot of things maybe don’t have the platform numbers some people are looking for, and we know that of course, platform is subjective. I’ve sent out projects where one editor says, what a great platform. And another editor says, no platform at all. And how do you put yourself in the camp of, it’s not there yet, but I still think it can work.

Well, I think that’s the most difficult thing about being a writer is figuring out how to market it, how to get out there above all that noise. And there is no foolproof thing. I have a nonfiction author, she’s got a podcast. She’s a scientist. She’s got all these things and all her fingers are in, a bunch of , different places .

She’s got a big following on Instagram. She started getting onto TikTok. Some people just really go with the social media. I’m not a huge social media fan unfortunately, and I know, Josh really isn’t and I like to think that, you could still be successful without having a trillion followers , on social media.

So I think I’ve seen some great classes out there, some offerings on how to better market yourself. And I think it’s just about networking and just getting the right people, cuz quantity doesn’t matter. I think quality is more important. I would also argue voice can rise the rest. And like I started to recognize Josh in the text, comments of our events kind of voice.

Do you think that’s part of it too? And Josh, how’d you do that?

How do I do voice? Yeah. How, how do you do that? Are you like, let me type this? Nope, nope. Wrong formula. Here’s how you’re funny. Fix, fix and send. No, certainly with the chat stuff, , it’s more, this is gonna sound bad, I just had fun. It’s , just saying things that would make people laugh or things that stand out, .

Dovetailing off of , what Renee had said. Some people have huge platforms and they make a bajillion dollars. Other people, they have a huge platform and they don’t, some people are no names until they get discovered. I’m horrible at marketing myself I social media, like once every presidential election.

I’m just, not that guy. But that’s okay because my dad always told me when I was going in the military, he said, make sure that you’re always upfront with your people because your folks can smell a BS artist from a mile away.

And I feel that that applies to writing as well. . I’ve never written anything that was designed to be, oh, this is the latest trend or mass market, or as Renee can tell you, I write this stuff that tens of people are like, oh my goodness, this is tolerable. But if anything, it’s like, Hey, at the end of the day, if I’m not a world famous author, that’s okay cuz I’ve written something that I enjoy and tens of other people might have enjoyed it too.

, and that’s good. And I think that’s just kind of finding a groove with either your voice or with a genre that you like. Some people write only in one genre. I have friends that have only written paranormal romance and that is their boom, that’s their bailiwick and more power to ‘ em.

Other people, it’s the cozy mystery or what have you, or , they only have a right way if you find what works , and you’ll love it, then. My theory is tenacity and optimism or the difference between a successful author and somebody who is constantly frustrated. And I think that’s the big thing.

If all you write is ya fantasy okay, write a lot of it. And eventually one’s gonna hit because you’re climbing a mountain and you’re not gonna get it at base camp. You’re gonna get it as you slog through time after time.

think that’s where a lot of people, they get distracted either with, well, the latest trend is fill in the blank, or I need to make my voice sound like this. it’s either disingenuous when they write it. You can read it on the page or , it’s not satisfying for them.

And it’s frustrating because . It’s the square peg . And so, more power to the people that write what they love and it, finds the right audience and they become successful and they find the right agent to represent them well. I think that’s another important thing too there are some authors out there who can write different genres and are comfortable doing so and just have all these different ideas.

But I wouldn’t want anybody to think that, oh my God, I only do romance, or I only do this, so, I won’t make it because I’m not eclectic enough or buried enough. And you don’t have to be, you have to just, be good at what you’re doing. And it’s not about throwing a bunch of things against the wall and seeing what sticks.

, it’s working hard on something that truly matters to you.

Could you tell us any tips for writers who are writing multiple things? How do you tell that to an agent without saying, here’s my query and then here’s, 10 more pages of everything I’m working on? Because writers get conflicting advice about that. Are you supposed to tell everyone? Are you not supposed to tell everyone?

I think it’s a good idea, but how do you do it without breaking that rule pitching one book at a time? . Well, that’s just, it if you’ve written 16 books in two weeks, I’m gonna guess that they’re not very polished, so my point is that you have to try to stay focused amidst trying to get a bunch of stuff out there that’s not the point of the game there, that’s not the goal.

And I know a lot of people think, oh, I have to hurry. I’m wasting time. And there is no wasting time. It’s time when it’s ready. And that’s it, because you don’t get another bite at the apple. it’s, do really well, make that the best it can possibly be, and that’s the time when it’s ready.

You’ve missed nothing. You may have missed more if you tried to rush it. So I think just, writing from the heart and writing what you do best , and feeling it and not just thinking that you’re supposed to fill some kind of quota.

Can you guys talk to us about effective working relationships between writer and agent? I don’t know, Renee, can we well, , whatever dysfunctional thing we’ve got going on here. Sure. , , I think, like I was saying earlier, that, there’s a fine line between absolute silence and, just not hearing from the writer at all and , Josh does a great job of checking in.

I joke that he blows up my inbox, but, , it’s always, great knowing that he’s putting everything he has behind it and it means something to him. So, , , it’s helpful to me to know that you are invested in your own actions. You just didn’t write something and now you’re throwing it at me going here, see what happens.

I’m just gonna sit back. That’s not how it works.

Yeah, I think , , writer’s side of the equation is setting the expectations. Cuz I know early on , we had chatted and I told Renee that I am painfully proactive with communication and if it’s irritating to let me know, and I’ve, , gone easy on her because when I’m in Go Mode writing a book I will provide weekly updates that include spreadsheets based on target word counts percentages above or behind my writing goals. I treat writing like a business and it is, I have daily, weekly word counts.

I have not done that to Renee mainly because I’m pretty sure she would’ve driven down to the DC area and beat me with a pipe . But I, so it’s been mostly, Hey, I’m working on this project, here’s what I’m doing. I’m nearing this. , I’m gonna send it off to beta readers and all that.

But that’s because when we first started getting to know each other in a working relationship, we had that conversation, and I think that’s important. And it goes back to what Eric had said. it’s a relationship and, so setting the expectations and the understanding is, very important.

And I think that’s twofold, where it’s not only the expectation of, what does Renee need from me, for example, but also what do I need from her? And, I think that’s where it’s been pretty good because sometimes it’ll just be an email where it’s like, Hey, here’s what I’m working on.

Do you need anything from me? I’m gonna send it off to, some beta readers, and then here’s my plan. . But , I think , that’s part of it. And going back to the level of trust and vulnerability.

Is that it’s understanding that if she were to say, Listen, it’s real busy. Just throttle back on comms right now. That’s okay because we’ve had enough working relationship. good example is , when I had sent her , the steampunk Western, and she wrote back and was very honest, and she said, , this isn’t a genre that I really represent.

So not a good decider of quality. It reads well, but I can’t decide how this compares. It’s a niche genre. And the reality is with tens of readers, this is a ny impossible cell that is bad news on an author because everything that we vomit onto the screen is our baby and is glorious and is wrapped in bacon and gold at least in our eyes.

And so that’s a level of trust that she can say that. , and it’s okay. I mean, , yeah. It kind of stinks that I think a good story. Mm, it’s not gonna work. But I think understanding that is, is important because it goes back to the tenacity and it’s like, all right, if it’s not this one, it’ll be the next one.

If it’s not the next one, it’ll be the next one. If it’s not the next one, it’s the next one. And that’s the working relationship and the understanding where it’s not one book, it’s the relationship of let’s find what will work for both of us. I write something that I really like, I feel good about the cozy mystery.

And she could read it and , she could just say, wow, this is atrocious. And it’s okay, maybe I focus on something else then. We’re both in this for a level of success. Honestly, it’s not in it for ego, it’s in it because at the end of the day, it’s a business.

We both wanna sell books and buy a house on the beach and, sip my ties for the rest of our lives.

Renee, can you think of anything else you haven’t said yet? Any advice that is related that authors might find useful?

I wish I had the magic pill. Like Josh is saying, it’s a journey for both of us. Not only , you find a good working rapport and, I really like his writing and it’s now, , it’s gonna be up to others how far we get to go. Because then I have , the fun of, putting it out there for editors and trying to match him up with someone else that finds it just as interesting as I do.

So, it’s a process it’s tough. You have to have a thick skin and, Josh took my constructive criticism of I can’t do anything with this at the moment. But that’s not mean that it’s never going to happen. Like I said, if he makes a name for himself, sometimes there’s somebody out there that wants to see that.

So it’s not all lost. Just because it’s not right now doesn’t mean it’s not gonna be down the road. So it’s just, tenacity and just keep going. You gotta be in it to win it. That’s it.

Josh, why don’t you tell us about these? Sure. They get a bad rap. Honeybees get a bad rap. They get blamed for the. Jerk nature of wasps and hornets.

Yellow jackets are just, angry all the time. Honey bees are doling kind. And so , the whole point with the never been stung that I put together, the proposal , that Renee , has pitched around that I had a phobia of bees for most of my life. And I don’t throw that term around lightly.

You wanna talk funny story. When I was young teenager in Alaska, I went to , this two or three day weekend camp event, and I was so terrified of bees that I was actually, in, a rain slicker and like the rubber rain pants and a big hat that I put netting around like and gloves. I was scared to get stung.

I was hiding under my desk screen, afraid of bees and. I had some raw hunting from a guy after I got out of the Marine Corps who kept bees at his property and I never tasted the stuff fresh out of the hype. And he started telling me about the science behind bees. And that’s, if there’s anything that will sway my opinion, you start talking math.

And I’m just like, oh, tell me more hot stuff. And so, he started telling me about the geometry of the cells and about the B space is exactly this, size and this, oh, if it’s bigger than that, they’ll build comb. If it’s smaller, they’ll fill it with propolis. And I was so fascinated that I came home from , that trip.

I, gone to play golf with my dad and. Came home and I told my soon-to-be wife, I oh no. Yeah, we were married at the time. I was like, yeah, I think I wanna take a local beekeeping class. , and she was just like, you have apparently hit your head and I wanna make sure the will is filled out because apparently you’re gonna die.

And I took the class and got two hives worth of bees a few months later and put ’em in the backyard having no idea what I was doing. And I’ve been in love with ’em ever since. And it was because they are the most mathematically perfect creature on the planet. They are the hardest working creatures.

It’s the reason why they call it busy as a bee. And they’re fantastic. They make honey, which is great, but they do a lot of good stuff in the environment. And there is nothing. Relaxing than going out to a hive in late spring. Cracking it open and you just have kind of the smell of the honey and the comb that wafts up at you and just this low hum of all of these vs just watching ’em come and go from the entrance of a hive.

And again, they get a bad rap , 99% of the time I go out to check on a hive and they could care less that I’m out there, as long as I’m not squishing ’em or knocking ’em around or something. They just want to go do their job and be left alone. And they’re a lot of fun.

They get ornery at times, but it’s a wonderful hobby. I have a absolutely loved it. My wife supports it. My daughter loves it, and it’s a lot of fun. I’m terrible at it. Most of the funny stories I have in my life have now come from beekeeping and dumb stuff that I’ve done.

But that’s the reason why I thought the book would be great. It’s like, okay, don’t do this, . That’s so interesting that you go from being hide under the desk screaming, afraid to finding it. Relaxing. Yeah.

So you mentioned math. Can you think of any numbers related to your writing process that could shed some light on that or how it usually goes well for writers ? Do you quantify everything just for fun? Make charts? Yep. Certainly when it comes to writing, I have spared Renee that, but like, when I’m in go mode for the cozy mystery, I set a target date and I was like, all right, cozy mysteries range between 16, 80,000 words.

Okay. My target. 80,000 words. I can write, my goal is 2000 words a day for a minimum of 10,000 words a week, which means I will have this finished in eight weeks. And then I sit down and I would write and then each day keep the chart and it’s like, okay, I am 17% ahead of schedule. Nano , that was my jam man.

It was just like, you want to quantify writing half of a book and you want to give me digital badges that I can wear on , my digital sash. Yeah, buddy. And it was just game on. I was like, hell yeah. And then the local Northern Virginia DC writing group on Discord, they then kept competitive charts. And so you add math and competition and I was just like 2000 words basic game on.

And I was throwing words down. Because that got me stoked. I can’t do it forever because, my wife was also like, You probably need to eat and sleep and remember that you have a family at some point. But for the two weeks that I played nano, it was a lot of fun.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You make it sound like you just sit down and everything just, automatically pours out cuz you’ve decided to write this, certain number of words. I wonder how many other authors, kind of struggle. Is there any process that you go through that you say you wanna write X amount of words , and how you achieve that goal?

Nope. I sit down and I got a general concept. for a book, like the Cozy Mystery. I knew big milestones, what I wanted to have happen. I know how I want to end it and I know the first sentence of how I want it to start and I just sit down and start writing the term I like is planter.

So it’s like I kind of have a plan and then if you look at the outline by the end of the book, it looks nothing like it. . But , I would sit down and be like, today I’m writing 2000 words and they might be liquid hot garbage, but I will get them down because you can polish garbage.

It’s much harder to generate the words, but I think every writer has their own process. And this is what has worked for me. And I will certainly say , the first draft was it had words after multiple rounds of editing, it was much better. But that’s also a first draft is, it’s like a first date.

It’s rare that you’re like, man, that was the best first date and we’re getting married tonight. You have to go through some of the less fun dates before you’re like, oh, this is somebody I wanna be with because they put up with my adverts in my comic sans.

Do you use those charts that are like 50% of the book, this needs to happen, 75% of the book this needs to happen. Do you like quantifying the structure of your book that way too? No. I think there’s certainly a formula where it’s like you have to have the initiating the catalyst event.

You have to have tension that happens , at certain moments. You have to have a midpoint. There definitely needs to be a climax. You have to keep. The postscript, once the big reveal and the the big to-do is done, so I’m not gonna have sa on defeated.

And then 700 pages later, we get to the end of, , the, book. But again, everybody, , the moment that you say here is the pattern that you have to follow, some author goes out and breaks it. First person present tense was not something that worked until somebody wrote a phenomenal story that I read and was like, okay, this works.

I’m in their head. Third person may work for this, or, multi p o v. I think the moment that you say, yeah, you have to do it this way you have shot yourself in the foot because you’ve boxed yourself in the corner , and. Again, for me, I have a pattern that I like

I treat every chapter like a video game level where there has to be something that happens, there’s a point to the chapter, and at the end of it, there has to be a reason why you want to go to the next level. Otherwise, if somebody gets to it and it’s like, oh, that’s great they close it and they never wanna pick it back up, then, if I was a better author than I might sell more books.

So maybe I need to reexamine my writing technique. I know that, there’s a lot of authors out there that say, Hey, I think this is good, but I’m just not getting any bites.

And I think that’s what really is helpful with Manuscript Academy is that, can get fresh eyes on it there’s no pressure anywhere and you can just get feedback on what is working and what isn’t and maybe why or why not. So, that’s what it was with reading your query. I thought it was really good and that led me to the proposal.

But, and it wasn’t to say that there weren’t some changes or there wasn’t some tweaks that had to be done. So it doesn’t have to be perfect. Well, and I think also from the agent perspective, it’s nice to be able to reassure someone that it’s not what they’re afraid of.

I was speaking with an author who was so afraid that one particular thing was happening and that was why he was getting rejected. And he is like, I’m getting rejected, therefore this is happening. And I was like, no, no, no. That logic doesn’t work. Just because you’re really afraid that that’s the reason, that’s not what’s happening at all.

To my eye it’s this other thing that’s basically a fine replace and you’ll be fine. I wish I could go out there and tell everyone the specific ways it’s going to be okay , and I don’t generally get the opportunity to do that, but when I can I find that really helpful for me just to know I’ve, done my part to make that one author feel better.

Josh, it sounds like you’ve gotten some really good advice over the years. Everything from a friend in a bar telling you to write a to booking the last spot of the day, to write this B book, even though you’re afraid of bees, and go take this B class even though you’re afraid of bees. What is the best writing advice you’ve gotten this whole time?

A mentor, author, friend of mine told me one time that there are two kinds of writers, those who sit down and write, and those who talk about writing. And she said, be the former even if what you write is not great, you’re putting words onto paper. And that, and reading. Authors that you respect helps to hone your skill.

Because even if you’re not studying it, you’re learning what works and it translates to the page because rare is it that there’s an author that writes one book, it goes big, it becomes an international bestseller, and they, retire to the beach and drink my ties. the people who become successful, and she even said that she’s like the successful authors.

They even had a handful of published books normally before something hit, and it became really big. They honed their craft, but they did it because they wrote, and that really stuck with me and that’s the reason why when I am in go mode where it’s like, yep, 2000 words a day, 10,000 words a week, I’m gonna give myself, two months to write this book.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Because it’s writing and it gets something that I can then. Polish and make better. There’s a balance with everything, but kill myself with research, kill myself with trying to raise a platform, do everything except put words on paper.

And it’s all a balance. It’s a constant learning process , and figuring out, what works, what doesn’t.

For me, it was boiling down to you just gotta write. , I think something that you’ve talked about here. , you also need to show up for the writing community, and you’ve done that, you’ve made . Relationships over the years with writers and people in the querying process, and that can be such an amazing tool that just adds to this.

It’s like work on the page, relationships being kind and building a spider web , of support and people there for you and something to catch you when things go wrong, but also that’s something you can keep, weaving as you move forward.

I a hundred percent agree. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s collection, I certainly appreciate building, those relationships have helped because I had never written a non-fiction proposal before and one of my author friends, she writes non-fiction and so I sent her the proposal.

I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And she’s like, okay, tried doing this. I’ve beta read for other authors, and that helps, I think make you a better writer. Because, at the end of the day, it’s you and a computer , and it can feel very lonely building the community of support, like you said, things like that , is clutch because are people that you have to have a level of trust with that you can send your manuscript to.

And it’s like, the question I always ask , when one of my friends has sent , a manuscript to beta is I will say, how red do you want the pen? Do you want me to just say, Hey, big picture, here’s what works. Or do you want line by line and you want me to just bloody this thing up?

And that’s all good because think that helps me as an author get better because I’m seeing mistakes that somebody else makes and maybe I become more sensitive to it. But it’s also, the support thing. , somebody’s gonna read my story and rip it to pieces , and that’ll make it better.

And then I’ll do the same for them. And , it’s less the isolated feeling of writing because we do, we sit down for hours at a time with us and the characters on the page, and that’s great, but it’s real tough when I’m trying to describe something I’m writing to my wife and I’m like, okay, well then this happens.

And then the ship comes in and it does this and then, there’s lots of explosions and her eyes glaze over and she’s just like, I’m so glad you’re pretty. So it’s good to have that network of people , that you can lean on.

Well, thank you both so much for doing this. It was really fun to hear about this,. Julie and I have a gift for the listeners out there. Julie, why don’t you say what we’re giving away and in honor of you two.

I really hope , it’s gonna be a bunch of bees. We’re just gonna send a bunch of bees. I mean, that would be amazing. I’m super interested in the mail. If you get a package that’s like, mm, you’re right. Right. Can you imagine ? You guys, thank you so much and , we’re so excited that you found each other through us and that this working relationship is going so well.

With that mind, we’d like to give away a free gold membership for a month for one of our listeners and a meeting with Renee specifically. If that lines up genre wise and we would like, Josh, do you have a code word that you could give our listeners that they could frantically get to the email and email us your word?

I’m just gonna go with honey. Honeybee . Okay, so the first person to email academy manuscript wishlist.com with honeybee in the subject line will get a month of access to our classes and library and events, and also a 10 minute meeting to go over your query with Renee. Where can we find you both online?

You can find me online at manuscript Academy and you can also@ghliterary.com. And that’s pretty much it.

I’m on the Twitter’s at Cobra Misfit. And then otherwise, . If there’s an Irish pub in my town, you can come hang out and have a beer. That’s kind of the socialization that I’m into. , will you bring them honey? Sure. Why not? All right.

Thank you both so much for joining us. I really, really appreciate it. And I can’t wait to hear what’s next for you. You’ll let us know when you have good news. Yeah, yeah. Keep us posted. Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully we’ll be doing , an update to this soon and let’s see what happens. Fingers crossed.