[00:00:00] Julie Kingsley: Welcome to the Manuscript Academy podcast brought to you by a writer and an agent who both believe that education is key. 

[00:00:11] Jessica Sinsheimer: The beauty is the people you meet along the way 

[00:00:14] Julie Kingsley: and that community makes all the difference here at 

[00:00:18] Jessica Sinsheimer: the Manuscript Academy. You can learn the skills, make the connections, and have access to experts all from home.

[00:00:26] Jessica Sinsheimer: I’m Julie Kingsley and I’m Jessica Zinsheimer. 

[00:00:29] Julie Kingsley: Put down your pens. Pause your word counts and 

[00:00:32] Jessica Sinsheimer: enjoy. Hey, everyone. We have a very special guest today. It is Dani Segelbaum. She is an agent at Carol Mann Agency, and boy, does she have stories to tell. I can’t wait to dive into nonfiction and how it relates to the real world.

[00:00:45] Jessica Sinsheimer: Hi, Dani. Welcome. 

[00:00:46] Dani Segelbaum: Hi, I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So tell 

[00:00:50] Jessica Sinsheimer: us about you and what you’re most excited to find right now. Yes. 

[00:00:53] Dani Segelbaum: Um, so I am a vice president, subsidiary rights director, and literary [00:01:00] agent at the Carol Mann Agency. And I work a lot on non fiction and a little bit of fiction.

[00:01:07] Dani Segelbaum: I’m looking to grow my fiction list, but I’m really looking for books that, you know, I get to learn something. There’s maybe a biography on someone that I didn’t know about this person and think, you know, everyone in the world should know who this person is, or a story that really, really captivates my attention and makes me just, I can’t put the book down.

[00:01:31] Dani Segelbaum: That’s really, you know, what I’m looking for at the end of the day is does this book make me want to keep reading? Am I learning something? So yeah, it’s a, it’s a low bar, I guess you could say. I’m not looking for anything like specific of this, specific of that, but you know, if I’m really captivated by the story, then that’s a, that’s a good sign.

[00:01:51] Jessica Sinsheimer: So can you tell us what you do in terms of foreign rights and what that means? Or subsidiary rights, you said. Yes. 

[00:01:57] Dani Segelbaum: So it’s encompassing [00:02:00] audio, foreign, film and TV. Um, I essentially am the liaison between our fabulous co agents around the world and our, uh, books within the agency. So if we, you know, have world rights, if we have audio, if we have film and TV, I am the person that tries.

[00:02:21] Dani Segelbaum: to connect our agents to these amazing projects and hopefully we get to sell them around the world. 

[00:02:29] Jessica Sinsheimer: Can you tell us what benefits authors will get from having subsidiary rights and somebody working on them versus, um, just putting the book out there and hoping? Yes. 

[00:02:37] Dani Segelbaum: Um, so, you know, I am personally Submitting just like I do for our domestic projects, I am submitting to our foreign co agents so they can submit to their publishers.

[00:02:47] Dani Segelbaum: They are getting, you know, the full PDFs of the manuscript. They are getting covers. They’re getting all the information they need just like a domestic submission. But, you know, to people [00:03:00] in, you know, China, Japan, Spain, anywhere around the world. Um, so it’s more of a personalized touch, I guess you could say.

[00:03:07] Dani Segelbaum: I’m connecting with these countries to sell these books in different languages. 

[00:03:12] Jessica Sinsheimer: I love it when people have a shelf of all of the books in different languages that came to the office. Do you have one of those? 

[00:03:18] Dani Segelbaum: It’s very cool. I get to see, you know, all of these covers translated in different languages and seeing the different versions compared to the U.

[00:03:27] Dani Segelbaum: S. version is very cool. It’s very exciting to see and our authors love 

[00:03:31] Jessica Sinsheimer: it. I have heard that it is easier to get clauses into contracts in other countries about not using AI to train on the manuscript itself. Have you seen that as well? Yeah, 

[00:03:43] Dani Segelbaum: we’re starting to see more and more of that. Um, I think our foreign publishers are really eager to work with some of our authors and they’re very respectful.

[00:03:55] Dani Segelbaum: I think that’s a good word, respectful of doing right by these [00:04:00] books of our authors and other books and making the translation as accurate as possible. So they’re very willing to get approval on covers and titles. or making sure AI is not part of it. So I’m hoping U. S. publishers are equally as 

[00:04:18] Jessica Sinsheimer: respectful.

[00:04:19] Jessica Sinsheimer: I have a theory, and perhaps it’s a cynical one, but that it’s basically a corporate problem, and we all agree that it would be better for everyone to have these clauses in the contracts, but… I think there probably needs to be one big author who refuses to sign their contract until the AI language is in there, and then suddenly they can copy and paste the same language from these other contracts, put it in there, and say corporate agrees, and then everyone’s happy.

[00:04:45] Jessica Sinsheimer: Um, is that your read 

[00:04:46] Dani Segelbaum: of the situation? I totally agree. It usually takes someone like that, like a, Uh, Stephen King or someone huge to say, you know, this doesn’t really work for me and it probably doesn’t work for other authors. So I’m going to [00:05:00] put my foot down on this. Um, isn’t that how all changes made?

[00:05:03] Dani Segelbaum: Um, so I absolutely agree with you. I wish 

[00:05:07] Jessica Sinsheimer: that it wasn’t considered collusion for people to get organized in that way. 

[00:05:11] Dani Segelbaum: Oh man, it’s publishing is interesting, I guess. But yeah, I hope, you know, AI is not part of. the conversation in publishing, just because I think it’s just not genuine, or, again, let’s use the word respectful for authors. 

[00:05:30] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, I mean, we’re doing this for art, right? Art makes you feel things.

[00:05:34] Jessica Sinsheimer: I really doubt that a AI generated story is going to understand and reflect the human experience in the way that we want it. too. I know it’s always a cute idea to be like, Hey, here’s this thing that eliminates the need to pay people. Therefore, it’s good for this quarter. So let’s do it. Also, it’s new. So let’s do it.

[00:05:56] Jessica Sinsheimer: But it’s almost as if the real practical [00:06:00] ramifications of living in a world that’s less nuanced in terms of the art have been completely ignored. 

[00:06:04] Dani Segelbaum: And I think it takes away from the fact that these authors work so hard. They take so long and put in, you know, blood, sweat, and tears to make these books as great as they are when, you know, a computer is not going to do that.

[00:06:21] Dani Segelbaum: It’s not going to. put their heart and soul into this. 

[00:06:25] Jessica Sinsheimer: One thing that we’re hoping to do in the next few months, and we’ve been, um, reaching out to experts in the field, is to have someone give a talk, kind of like, remember how a couple years ago, there was always that family member saying, well, why don’t you just upload your book to Amazon and have a bestseller?

[00:06:42] Jessica Sinsheimer: I feel like now there is the, well, why don’t you just put your book idea into chat GPT and have a bestseller? And so we are looking for tech folks who are able to talk about how humanity is necessary and what we’re creating and how technology just isn’t there, [00:07:00] but also to give actionable feedback for what to say to that family member because there’s always that guy and Thanksgiving is coming.

[00:07:06] Jessica Sinsheimer: I 

[00:07:06] Dani Segelbaum: would love that because, you know, technology is often confusing for me. I’m the person that like never knows how to work any of my devices, so AI is like on a totally another level for me. So let’s 

[00:07:18] Jessica Sinsheimer: talk about nonfiction. What is it that you look for in nonfiction, in addition to truth, in a nuanced way?

[00:07:25] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. Um, a lot of my nonfiction right now is sort of female leaning, I guess, um, which is not a bad thing, and I think it’s really just about learning about someone or something from a new, modern, and fresh angle that, you know, you’re sitting there and you have this aha moment, like, oh my gosh, I didn’t realize.

[00:07:51] Dani Segelbaum: I didn’t know that that existed or I had no idea who this person was. And you get this feeling where you’re like, everyone should know who this person is [00:08:00] or what this is. And, you know, it’s, it’s an exciting feeling where even as an adult, you get to learn something new from what you’re reading. It makes 

[00:08:08] Jessica Sinsheimer: me happy that you talk about nonfiction reading as an experience and as a feeling, because I think so many people are like, nonfiction is.

[00:08:15] Jessica Sinsheimer: for downloading input into my brain, but the very best nonfiction, the nonfiction with that real voice, makes you see things from a perspective that you never considered and have this full, incredible experience, versus just, here are some bullet points to memorize. Absolutely. 

[00:08:32] Dani Segelbaum: It doesn’t have to read like a textbook.

[00:08:34] Dani Segelbaum: I read, um, my author’s memoir last week and I was in tears because it was just so moving and emotional and that is the kind of nonfiction people should be reading where you, it gets, it gives you all the feelings, right? Is that what they say? All the feels, yeah. All the feels, yes. Um, that is. That is what nonfiction should do.

[00:08:58] Julie Kingsley: So, Dani, tell us, I think [00:09:00] nonfiction is so interesting because everyone feels like it needs to be prescribed. How much voice is allowed in nonfiction? 

[00:09:08] Dani Segelbaum: Yes, um, so for memoir, I mean, the more the merrier, right? We want it to, to scream voice, um, and even for, you know, biographies, like, for example, Alexis Coe, who wrote, You’ll Never Forget Your First, about George Washington.

[00:09:24] Dani Segelbaum: I read that book and I, Loved it, because it was voicey, it was fresh, it was funny, but at the same time, you’re reading a biography about a president, you know? You would never think to yourself that reading this could be so entertaining. So I love it when it actually does have a little bit of 

[00:09:42] Jessica Sinsheimer: edge to it.

[00:09:43] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, sounds like voice and perspective, because it’s a very modern perspective over something that happened quite a long time ago. Yes! But it almost provides the translation for the folks who are living now and how to understand something then. Absolutely. 

[00:09:55] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. So I think that’s what makes it exciting and [00:10:00] entertaining and yes, fresh and 

[00:10:02] Jessica Sinsheimer: modern.

[00:10:02] Jessica Sinsheimer: So if you’re willing, I’d love to talk with you about what you are looking for in terms of nonfiction for women right now. Um, I don’t know if, are you on TikTok? I’m not. Okay. I’m on Instagram. My TikTok lately is all women who are like, you know what, We’re done. Um, But it’s so interesting to me because it feels like enough people have shared enough stories that people are seeing the commonalities in these really common, nuanced situations. And it makes me wonder if non fiction for women is going to change. Like, I saw a book um, a couple years ago, and then people are bringing it up now, called, How to Date Men When You Hate Men.

[00:10:41] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yes, yes, I’ve seen that book. And it’s beautiful. It’s this lovely color, bright flowers, you know, lots of pink. And it’s just so interesting to me because as you’re talking about, like, voice and perspective, this is a perspective we wouldn’t have had even , ten years ago. Have you seen a lot of change in that 

[00:10:57] Dani Segelbaum: space?

[00:10:58] Dani Segelbaum: Yes, I think, you know, [00:11:00] women have more confidence and more, I guess, leeway and less fear to, to do what they want, to write what they want, and they’re not afraid to offend, and I think that’s fantastic. 

[00:11:13] Jessica Sinsheimer: Where is the line between not afraid to offend and agents will be afraid to pick it up? 

[00:11:19] Dani Segelbaum: I mean, it definitely depends on the agent.

[00:11:21] Dani Segelbaum: Um, you know, I love forking. with strong female authors who write about strong female characters, especially in history. That’s, that’s part of why I wanted to be an agent was to promote books that did this, but I think if it’s done well and accurate, I think. Don’t be afraid. 

[00:11:43] Jessica Sinsheimer: Would you say the bigger the voice, the more facts you need to back it up?

[00:11:46] Jessica Sinsheimer: Sure. 

[00:11:47] Dani Segelbaum: Yes. I think regardless if you’re writing nonfiction, it should definitely be factual. I mean, we all sit there and watch these movies that are, you know, historical movies based on a true event. [00:12:00] And like the best part of the film was made up. I always, you know, Googled the film afterwards and I’m like, wait, That actually didn’t happen.

[00:12:07] Dani Segelbaum: That was the best part of the movie. I mean, that’s such a letdown. So I do think, you know, it needs to be accurate. And that is why, you know, my authors are experts at what they’re writing about. And, you know, it’s really like their heart and soul, their bread and butter. And this is what they live and breathe.

[00:12:27] Dani Segelbaum: I love working with those people who And just nerd out on the most random, interesting tidbit and be like, this was my PhD thesis and I want to write a trade book about it. And, you know, I’m like, yes, I love that. You’re jazzed about this weird thing. Let’s do it. So I think that’s one of the best parts about my job is just helping people, especially women, you know, just get this really fantastic story out there.

[00:12:55] Jessica Sinsheimer: Can you tell us an example of some fun nerding out one of your authors has 

[00:12:59] Dani Segelbaum: done? Oh my [00:13:00] gosh. So I’m looking at a book right now that comes out later this month in September, and it’s called Crusade to Heal America by Judith Pearson. And it is about the remarkable life of Mary Lasker. And not many people know who Mary Lasker is.

[00:13:20] Dani Segelbaum: She was a gorgeous socialite, but she is responsible for the creation of the NIH and getting the National Cancer Act passed. And, you know, she wasn’t a doctor. She wasn’t a scientist. She wasn’t married to a doctor or scientist. She was just a socialite who saw that the country needed this and made it her life’s work to use her connections and power and money to create what we now use every day, what helped us get through the pandemic, actually.

[00:13:53] Dani Segelbaum: Wow. Yeah. When was this? Um, in the early 1900s. So the National Cancer Act [00:14:00] was passed actually in 1971. But. you know, she, you know, reinvented the American Cancer Society in 1944. It’s, um, I’m probably botching all of these dates, but we wanted her to be a name along, you know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, for example, you know, just this incredible woman who did this incredible thing.

[00:14:24] Dani Segelbaum: Here’s her book cover. I love 

[00:14:25] Jessica Sinsheimer: that. I love the idea of putting forth stories of people who don’t have all of the things, things you Think they would need to accomplish their goal. Yes, yes. 

[00:14:36] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. 

[00:14:37] Jessica Sinsheimer: Absolutely. And I love that because then maybe some of those readers out there will realize the same.

[00:14:43] Dani Segelbaum: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yes. I love, you know, seeing in my inbox proposals for things where I’m like, that is. It’s so interesting. I didn’t know that and I want everyone else to know that. So we’re going to make it happen. 

[00:14:56] Jessica Sinsheimer: I love how sometimes when you’re learning about one [00:15:00] thing, it opens up so many other things that you don’t know.

[00:15:03] Jessica Sinsheimer: And then it just sends you down this incredible branching path of like, this entire world. You had no idea what Totally. But it has to feel inspiring when it does. It can’t, again, be the list of bullet pointed facts. That’s not going to get you there. No. That’s not going to fill your curiosity. Absolutely.

[00:15:20] Dani Segelbaum: And I’m the kind of person to say there’s like a weird new story. I’m the person to be awake at four a. m. going down a rabbit hole and to wake up the next morning and tell my friends and be like, all right, I know every single thing about this weird thing that happens because I was fascinated by it and it’s four o’clock in the morning and that’s when I decided to buckle down and do my research.

[00:15:43] Jessica Sinsheimer: No, I like it. I feel like something that can keep you up that late because you are that curious, like how, I wish I knew the ingredients for what made a reader curious. Do you have any theories? 

[00:15:53] Dani Segelbaum: I think we would be very rich if we knew that. Um, [00:16:00] yeah, I don’t know. I mean, especially in today’s world, I mean, you have TikTok, you see what people watch and are fascinated by and.

[00:16:09] Dani Segelbaum: You know, it could be those cooking videos or, you know, I, I read somewhere that people like to watch like carpet cleaning videos because they find it relaxing or Yeah, nothing 

[00:16:23] Jessica Sinsheimer: too bad is going to ever happen. 

[00:16:25] Dani Segelbaum: Right, right. So it’s very random. Very random. I 

[00:16:28] Jessica Sinsheimer: suspect it has something to do with establishing a scene and raising just the right ratio of questions asked to questions answered.

[00:16:38] Jessica Sinsheimer: Cause if people know nothing, they’re gonna be lost, but if they know everything, they’re gonna be bored. 

[00:16:42] Dani Segelbaum: Mm hmm. And I think also, sort of taking us out of reality for a moment. to take us out of the headspace of our day, right? Of the stress of work, of our personal lives, or the fact that nobody’s outside right now, or whatever it may be.

[00:16:58] Dani Segelbaum: Something that can really sort [00:17:00] of, almost like a TV show, just transport you into a different 

[00:17:03] Jessica Sinsheimer: mindset. I bet that the book that you just held up starts with a very vivid scene that is not in our world. Am I right? 

[00:17:11] Yes. 

[00:17:12] Dani Segelbaum: I mean, also, she was not alive in our lifetime. So that helps, but I think that’s what makes it even more interesting.

[00:17:20] Dani Segelbaum: Sensory 

[00:17:21] Jessica Sinsheimer: details and a lot of the things that we use in fiction can work really well in narrative nonfiction. 

[00:17:27] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. Do you work on fiction yourself or nonfiction? 

[00:17:30] Jessica Sinsheimer: You know what’s funny? I started out thinking I wanted to do adult nonfiction, and now I do mostly fiction. All of that changed over a number of years.

[00:17:39] Jessica Sinsheimer: Gosh, I mean, it must have been maybe only like four years. into working in, in agenting, I realized that I could articulate to myself that the best memoirs read like novels that happen to be true. Absolutely. 

[00:17:50] Dani Segelbaum: And that’s what I tell everyone when I do consulting or conferences or anything with memoir.

[00:17:56] Dani Segelbaum: Because it’s such a hard genre to sell, unless you’re a famous [00:18:00] celebrity or something. So 

[00:18:01] Jessica Sinsheimer: what about voice in a nonfiction book proposal? How much do you like and do you think it’s necessary? I like to see a 

[00:18:08] Dani Segelbaum: little bit of it. I think having your author bio, Highlight what you’ve done or, you know, where you’ve been previously published, whether it’s a news article or a previous book.

[00:18:18] Dani Segelbaum: I think that sort of provides a little insight, but seeing, you know, such a dry book proposal where it does read like a textbook, you know, I’m the first to have my eyes sort of fall asleep, right? So I think definitely having a little bit in a proposal because that’s what you’re submitting to editors as well.

[00:18:36] Dani Segelbaum: So they also need to get on board with your voice as well. Dani, what do you look for in a book proposal? Oh man, I look for people That have shown that they can promote themselves. I think that’s so important in today’s world. If you wrote this fantastic book and you have no interest in being on social media, promoting yourself [00:19:00] in any way, shape or form, it’s just, it’s not going to work.

[00:19:03] Dani Segelbaum: Why would anyone want to buy anything? If you’re not able to even say like, Hey, I wrote this book and it’s fantastic. I think that is like definitely the first thing I look for is. Are you someone that can sell yourself? Because that’s so important. Next I look, are you an expert at what you do? Do you have a PhD in this?

[00:19:26] Dani Segelbaum: Or you’ve written prior books in this? Or you’re a journalist? Or something that shows that, you know, this is what you live and breathe. I think that is super important. And then, you know, does the story captivate me? A lot of, and I’m sure you can totally agree with this, a lot of what we read we think is great, but can we sell it?

[00:19:45] Dani Segelbaum: That’s another question. And I think a lot of people don’t realize that what we read and what we sell are probably 

[00:19:53] Jessica Sinsheimer: very different. Yeah. In my case, absolutely. I purposely read other genres in my off time. [00:20:00] Yes. 

[00:20:00] Dani Segelbaum: It’s also, you know, for us, uh, sort of a brain break, but, um, yeah, I, I read mainly fiction. In my off time 

[00:20:08] Jessica Sinsheimer: someday I mean, I realize this is wildly impractical and probably unhealthy, but someday I think it would be very cool to just be scanning where the blood is going in an agent’s brain as they go through their submission pile and then like throw something in there that’s really good so you can see like where in our brains does something like light 

[00:20:25] Dani Segelbaum: up.

[00:20:26] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, yeah, they say light up for a PET scan. I know that’s not technically scientifically correct, but I think it’d be cool. And of course it’s bad for you, they have to inject all kinds of stuff into you to do all that, but like, how cool would that be? It would be cool. Just like, put an agent in there every day for six months and somewhere in that six months they’ll find something they 

[00:20:42] Dani Segelbaum: like.

[00:20:42] Dani Segelbaum: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Where it’s like, you know, the brain has its aha moment. Yes, for science. For science. Because we really know what we’re talking about as two people who work in publishing. Yeah, most 

[00:20:55] Jessica Sinsheimer: people in publishing do not know much about science but can still work on science books. [00:21:00] Yes. Yeah. So what about the authors out there who are like, okay, I’m super passionate about this.

[00:21:05] Jessica Sinsheimer: I’ve studied it. I would love to be the expert in my field. I would love to have a ton of followers. Like what do they do? What do the people do who’ve got the passion, but not the numbers? Yeah. And 

[00:21:15] Dani Segelbaum: I, I don’t think numbers always equate to sales, you know, get some writing accolades out there, get some articles published.

[00:21:23] Dani Segelbaum: Um, I think that is also just Important as having Instagram followers or TikTok followers or, you know, whatever we want to call it. I think, you know, showing that there is some sort of audience for your writing is super important. Um, so even if it’s like a Huffington Post article or whatever. That, 

[00:21:43] Jessica Sinsheimer: that’s great.

[00:21:44] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, it’s like social proof. It’s like these other people paid me to write something. Right! Exactly, 

[00:21:49] Dani Segelbaum: exactly, exactly. And you know, it shows that you can write a sentence. It shows that people are interested in what you’re writing. So I think, [00:22:00] I think that’s 

[00:22:00] Jessica Sinsheimer: half the battle. Yeah. You know, I always wonder, If it’s literally just a form where they plug in numbers, there’s not really a spot for that aspect of it.

[00:22:09] Jessica Sinsheimer: It’s more like, that’s the sort of thing they’d bring up at an editorial meeting, like, well, they don’t have two million Instagram followers, but they were published here, here, here, and here, and that’s still really compelling, I think. Um, Absolutely. 

[00:22:21] Dani Segelbaum: Because a lot of those people who are maybe reading that article, they might not even have social media.

[00:22:26] Dani Segelbaum: Or, you know, they might follow a completely different thing. They might only follow food people, even though they like to read about this. Or, so I don’t think it’s like a clear, this many followers equals this many book sales. Yeah. Definitely not. And I think I’ve started to see that. 

[00:22:43] Jessica Sinsheimer: I think a lot of people misunderstand that.

[00:22:45] Jessica Sinsheimer: They think, well, I have this many followers, therefore all of them will buy the book. Every single 

[00:22:49] Dani Segelbaum: one, yes. 

[00:22:50] Jessica Sinsheimer: Every single one of them. Even if they delete Instagram and throw their phone in a lake, they will see my post and they will click on it. Yes. 

[00:22:58] Dani Segelbaum: Exactly, [00:23:00] exactly. 

[00:23:00] Jessica Sinsheimer: But I’m glad we’re coming to a more nuanced appreciation of it.

[00:23:03] Jessica Sinsheimer: Um, I remember one time years ago, I was working on a rare non fiction, uh, rare for me non fiction project, and I remember one editor said, Oh my gosh, this author has an amazing platform perfect for this book. Another editor said, what? I like it, but the platform’s non existent. And it’s so funny to me. I was so mad at the time.

[00:23:25] Jessica Sinsheimer: I was like, why is it so inconsistent? And then I realized it’s kind of like how subjectivity is good for us. It’s good that it’s not the same across the board. 

[00:23:35] Dani Segelbaum: Mm hmm. Yes. And, you know, I say that to my authors when they get passes on their submissions. I’m like, take everything with a grain of salt, you know?

[00:23:43] Dani Segelbaum: This could be an excuse. This could be what their sales team said. This isn’t a reflection of your writing and who you are. Not 

[00:23:51] Jessica Sinsheimer: at all. Yeah. I would love to see everyone’s, like, worksheets or whatever. It’s probably not even a worksheet. I would love to see the metrics everyone uses to [00:24:00] figure this out, though, because it’s very clearly very different for each of us.

[00:24:04] Jessica Sinsheimer: Very 

[00:24:04] Dani Segelbaum: different. And it sometimes is very different depending on the book, even in the same house, you know, there isn’t, if we knew the formula, we’d be very successful at what we 

[00:24:14] Jessica Sinsheimer: do. I asked a friend at Penguin once if I could, um, sneak in, crawl through the vents, rappel down from the ceiling, open a computer, and find the PNL formula, and she said no.

[00:24:26] Jessica Sinsheimer: And 

[00:24:26] Dani Segelbaum: I, I was an editor of HarperCollins, so I know, you know, what the PNL looks like. I know what it’s like to sit in those sales meetings, and it’s still, there is not a perfect solution 

[00:24:37] Jessica Sinsheimer: for everything. I’m sure they don’t want you to talk about exactly how the PNL works right now on this podcast, but can you tell us anything about what those meetings are like?

[00:24:46] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, I 

[00:24:47] Dani Segelbaum: always say it’s like when you’re the editor, it’s like you’re a lawyer pleading your case in court and you need all of the ammunition, all of the data, all the facts to answer as many [00:25:00] questions as you possibly can that they try to throw at you. Like Shark Tank. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I try to keep that in mind when I have an editor going to her sales team with my book.

[00:25:12] Dani Segelbaum: I’m always like, tell me what you need. I will give you as much information as you possibly could have because I know what it’s like sitting in those meetings where they’re throwing 10 million questions at you and you’re like, I don’t know. I don’t know the answer. Yeah. So it is truly like you are pleading your case.

[00:25:32] Dani Segelbaum: In court. Well, and it’s… Sorry, go ahead. No, no. And I was gonna say, and you’re, the sales team is, is like the jury. It’s 

[00:25:39] Jessica Sinsheimer: unfair, I think, that if they ask an obscure question and you don’t have the answer ready, even if the answer is a good answer, it will make them lose confidence if you’re like, 

[00:25:50] Dani Segelbaum: They’re intimidating meetings.

[00:25:52] Dani Segelbaum: Um, and I think having an editor who is super passionate about something and having that passion really shine in those meetings is [00:26:00] super important because the sales team will see that they are going to go as far as they can with this book as possible. Because they are so dedicated to it. 

[00:26:09] Jessica Sinsheimer: Well, when we were talking about how we see a lot of books that are perfectly great, but we don’t know if we can sell them.

[00:26:16] Jessica Sinsheimer: And I think that certain quality that is what makes this rise above the rest, for me, it’s I put this down for a couple days and I’m still thinking about it. And to me, that is some kind of energetic staying power that will travel through my excitement when I write the pitch letter to the editor. to that meeting so that they can feel that same little ball of energy packet that is in that work.

[00:26:39] Jessica Sinsheimer: And I think that’s why it’s so important that people, like, really inject their own energy into their book proposals and make it their own. So that it’s, you know, it’s this perspective, it’s this voice, it’s this way of approaching the topic. It’s all backed up. by all of these facts that have been figured out by this expert in the field.

[00:26:58] Jessica Sinsheimer: But assuming we [00:27:00] have the platform, assuming we have everything else that is quantitative in place, for me, it really is that magic of just that energy of it. Absolutely. 

[00:27:07] Dani Segelbaum: We all have those moments where, you know, we put down a book to go do something and it ends up being the next day and you’re still thinking about it and, you know, you’re telling your family and friends, oh my god, I just read the most incredible book.

[00:27:20] Dani Segelbaum: You know, I, we all have those moments where, you know, the enthusiasm just really shines through in everything you do for that 

[00:27:28] Jessica Sinsheimer: book. I noticed that if I try to talk about it before I’ve really let it, like, form in my mind and I’m tripping over all the descriptions and I’m like, wait, no, it’s that, but it’s this other thing.

[00:27:37] Jessica Sinsheimer: That means I’ve got so much forward momentum. I don’t care if I look stupid. I’m going to tell you about this book and you’re going to know about it. I like will word 

[00:27:44] Dani Segelbaum: vomit the details to anyone who will listen and they’re like, wait, what are you talking about? And I’m like, no, no, no, it’s so good. You don’t understand.

[00:27:50] Dani Segelbaum: Yeah. 

[00:27:51] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah. And of course this is not something anyone does professionally, but like agents are in a world with friends and people who will listen to us generally nicely talk [00:28:00] about the books and the things that we’re reading. They’re usually interested. But yeah, if I want to tell. Every person I run into, whether or not they like books, whether or not they like the genre, they’re like, how are you?

[00:28:10] Jessica Sinsheimer: My answer is going to be, I read this thing. 

[00:28:14] Dani Segelbaum: Yes, our poor family and friends who have to hear us at the end of the day talk about 10 million books. But, you know, I think we probably have much cooler jobs than our family and friends. 

[00:28:24] Jessica Sinsheimer: Um, yes. Uh, and I imagine some folks out there are like, I’ll be your friends.

[00:28:34] Jessica Sinsheimer: But no, that really, I really think that is a vital step, the going through, the put it down, see if you still think about it, see if you try to talk about it before you can’t, see if you find yourself saying things like you said of like, no, but it’s so good, you don’t understand, you kind of like, in that way, workshop how you’re going to talk about it, and then, at least in my mind, once I have that really nice encapsulated high concept way of describing it.

[00:28:56] Jessica Sinsheimer: That’s when I know I’m ready to go to my team and be like, hey, guess what I [00:29:00] found? 

[00:29:00] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. Absolutely. I was reading, um, one of my author’s memoirs last week. My fiance kept coming over to talk to me and I’m like, you need to go away. I need to keep reading. Leave me alone. He’s like, Oh my God, what is wrong with you?

[00:29:16] Dani Segelbaum: I’m like, I just need to finish this book because it is so good. 

[00:29:20] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah, it’s that forward momentum. It’s the like, I need to read this right now because I can’t do anything else because I’m not going to be able to focus. 

[00:29:28] Dani Segelbaum: Yes, and I think I emailed the author, like, I wasn’t even done with the book and I was like, we need to get on the phone right now to discuss this because this was incredible.

[00:29:37] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yes, right this second, stop what you’re doing. Yeah, like she could tell I was 

[00:29:41] Dani Segelbaum: excited. 

[00:29:41] Jessica Sinsheimer: But, but everyone loves that, right? Like, everyone wants someone who sees all of the beautiful things in their work that they put in there. They want the, I see what you did there. They want the, I’ve told all my friends about it and, you know, you’re probably not going to be like, here are the dumb ways I tried to describe it before I figured it out, but [00:30:00] it’s part of the process.

[00:30:01] Jessica Sinsheimer: We all probably do it. So, okay, so let’s go back to the very beginning. How did you know you wanted to work in publishing and Do you remember going into Harper the first time for your interview? Yes. 

[00:30:12] Dani Segelbaum: Um, okay, so the short answer is I didn’t know I wanted to go into publishing. Um, I was a journalism, political science major in college, and I thought I wanted to be a journalist and write for, like, women’s magazines.

[00:30:27] Dani Segelbaum: And I had a few interviews at some big magazines, and I remember sitting there going, this is horrible. I hate this. Which is, which is good. You know, they just weren’t friendly. I was going to be a glorified intern. And, you know, we’ve all sat in those interviews. We were like, okay, so I am just the next poor soul who walked in here.

[00:30:53] Dani Segelbaum: to take this interview. You know, and I had a friend who was an editor at Harper Collins [00:31:00] and she said, Danny, I know you like to read, I know you can write. This really cool imprint has an opening and I think you should apply. And so I did. I, you know, I had just graduated from college. I was Very desperate for a job like every other person who had just graduated and I Went into HarperCollins.

[00:31:20] Dani Segelbaum: I took this interview thinking, you know, I don’t even know if I want to do this I don’t even know like what this is and I loved my boss. We had an interview for two hours and we were just chatting and I remember yes and it wasn’t even like questions. We were just talking and chatting and she did these beautiful, beautiful coffee table books and I had a few 

[00:31:46] Jessica Sinsheimer: of them.

[00:31:47] Jessica Sinsheimer: Tell me more. Tell me more about this coffee table book. So 

[00:31:49] Dani Segelbaum: the imprint was, it’s no longer, but it was called Harper Design. And they did really highly designed nonfiction books. Um, a lot of fashion [00:32:00] books, cookbooks, celebrity memoirs. And I had a few of them. I loved fashion. And so some of the books that she made, I had in my personal collection.

[00:32:09] Dani Segelbaum: And I always say it’s like one of those jobs where it’s like naming the nail polishes. Like you knew someone made them, but you had no idea that a real person could have that job. And I don’t even think if she asked Like if I was even capable of the job or anything, but we really connected and she thought I was smart enough to, I don’t know, be her assistant and sure enough, I was, um, an editor at HarperCollins for two and a half years.

[00:32:37] Dani Segelbaum: It was like the greatest grad school publishing experience. I could possibly have. I learned how to make a book from proposal to seeing it in the bookstore and everything in between. And it was just an incredible learning experience. And at that point I learned what a literary agent [00:33:00] was. I had no idea what a literary agent was before I worked at HarperCollins.

[00:33:04] Dani Segelbaum: And I quickly realized, hey, I actually like that job better than my current job. So that’s when I decided I’m gonna become a literary 

[00:33:13] Jessica Sinsheimer: agent. What was it that you knew you liked better? So I really like working 

[00:33:17] Dani Segelbaum: with the authors. I really like, you know, reaching out to them or them reaching out to me. And they have this just idea or concept and it’s not really full, fully formed yet.

[00:33:27] Dani Segelbaum: And I loved working with authors. on their idea from start to finish. When you’re an editor, the idea is generally there, right, by the time a manuscript or proposal hits your desk. So I really wanted to work with authors from day one. I love that. 

[00:33:43] Julie Kingsley: So Dani, tell us, do you have a favorite, like, a favorite time that you’ve seen one of your books out 

[00:33:49] Dani Segelbaum: in the wild?

[00:33:50] Dani Segelbaum: Yeah, that’s so fun. I love You know, going into like an airport bookstore or a bookstore in a random city and being like, I worked [00:34:00] on that book. My name is in the back of this book. Um, yes, I took a vacation to Greece and there was a few of my books in a way in Greece. In Greece. In Greece. It was a very cool moment.

[00:34:13] Dani Segelbaum: Did you 

[00:34:13] Jessica Sinsheimer: do the Greek translation deals for them, too? So this was 

[00:34:16] Dani Segelbaum: when I was at HarperCollins. So I think these were actually in English, but, you know, I took tons of pictures. I love the 

[00:34:24] Julie Kingsley: idea. Did you grab plates and start just smashing them right there in the bookstore? It was 

[00:34:31] Dani Segelbaum: a very, very cool moment. It was a very cool moment.

[00:34:34] Dani Segelbaum: I was telling Jessica that I was. I’m getting married and I was registering last week and one of the stores had a book that I worked on and you know, I was telling the lady I was like, you know, I made that book and she was like, what do you mean? And I was like, see, there’s my name. And she actually had me sign where my name was.

[00:34:56] Dani Segelbaum: It was very funny. I love 

[00:34:58] Julie Kingsley: that so much. I think [00:35:00] it’s so like, I’ve been thinking a lot about what it means to be like an agent and an editor and are like, you guys get to leave little pockets of your energy all over the place. It’s so curious, right? And like this idea that something you put so much heart into with the author and this partnership that we have, this creative partnership, and then it’s just there and it keeps moving on and on and on.

[00:35:26] Julie Kingsley: And that’s, that’s really what’s so special about books and, you know, the creative process. I think it’s curious that we have, like, writers have creative practice in how they get ready to work. Do you have a specific creative practice when you create anything and or when you work with things people created?

[00:35:47] Dani Segelbaum: I really don’t. I mean, I am, I would say, generally a very creative person. I was that kid who loved art class and, you know, lived for getting my hands dirty with paint and clay or whatever it [00:36:00] was, um, as an adult, my creative outlets now are I’d love to bake. I love to cook. I think that’s. Something that I really focus on now, probably more than, you know, I wish I was like taking art classes now, but with time it’s so hard,

[00:36:17] Dani Segelbaum: Um, but yeah, I love to make ice cream. I love to make cakes. My love language is definitely feeding anyone and anyone around me, so my gosh, mine 

[00:36:26] Julie Kingsley: too. But I think that’s, that’s so interesting though, because I think. If you’re editing a piece and you’re baking a cake, there’s magic in moving into the space of just baking so that you can come back and actually be, like, really present for that 

[00:36:44] Dani Segelbaum: piece.

[00:36:44] Dani Segelbaum: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, some people. Some people exercise, some people meditate, some people go to therapy. I would say baking is, baking is my therapy. 

[00:36:56] Jessica Sinsheimer: Can you tell us about a favorite baking book you’re using right now? Oh [00:37:00] gosh. 

[00:37:00] Dani Segelbaum: So I collect cookbooks. I have like 300 in my house. Um, I’m trying to think the perfect scoop by, I think it’s.

[00:37:08] Dani Segelbaum: David Leibovitz. We’ll have to check that. Um, but it’s a fantastic ice cream book. Um, anything Dory Greenspan touches, I’m obsessed with. Um, I’m trying to think what else, some new exciting ones that I’ve gotten. I also have all of my grandmother’s recipe cards and she was a huge baker. So I have in her handwriting all of her cards that I’d like to go through and see what I want to whip up.

[00:37:35] Jessica Sinsheimer: I love watching pastry TikTok. I love watching people put in an extra layer of dough that like crisps up as it bakes and gosh it’s gorgeous like I can’t even eat gluten anymore but I want to see all the beautiful things happening with every pastry. 

[00:37:52] Dani Segelbaum: Yes, I watch them on Instagram reels five days later like every other person who doesn’t have TikTok but I could spend hours.[00:38:00] 

[00:38:00] Dani Segelbaum: watching those. But 

[00:38:00] Julie Kingsley: I think there’s like, it goes into that correlation between like a perfect recipe is like a perfect book. It is the right amount of like space between the ideas so that the reader can make their own assumptions, right? Like I think there’s so much creatively that those two go together.

[00:38:18] Julie Kingsley: It’s kind of interesting thing to talk about. Um, I love it 

[00:38:22] Jessica Sinsheimer: so much. I almost feel like everyone needs a secondary hobby. So when you get stuck with your writing and you want to throw your laptop in a lake, here’s the bread you can go make or here’s the, uh, YouTube you can go follow that’s a dance class or here’s the, like, I think everyone needs a healthy escape activity for the moments when they want to destroy their keyboard.

[00:38:41] Jessica Sinsheimer: Absolutely. 

[00:38:42] Julie Kingsley: Dani, do you have a favorite book that you’re reading right now? 

[00:38:45] Dani Segelbaum: Oh gosh. I feel like every I hate questions. I know. Does everyone in publishing, like, hate this question? I hate that like, oh my god, what are we reading right 

[00:38:52] Jessica Sinsheimer: now? Also what are favorites? Like, obviously we need a full buffet of books at all times.

[00:38:56] Jessica Sinsheimer: Yeah. Like, we can’t just have one. Of 

[00:38:58] Dani Segelbaum: course. My Night [00:39:00] Stand has like 50 books on it right now that I wish I could sit down and read forever. But Horse by Geraldine Brooks. was one of the best books I’ve read this 

[00:39:08] Jessica Sinsheimer: year. Is it literally about horses? Yes. 

[00:39:10] Dani Segelbaum: It is on my list. It’s so good. And it, it’s back to what we were talking about, where you are learning about something that you had no idea existed, that you’re like, oh my god, this is so fascinating and so interesting.

[00:39:24] Jessica Sinsheimer: I love the micro trend. Is it a microtrend? I love the way that there are books now that are just a single title and it is such a deep dive. Like, it makes me think of that book Salt, and I’m like, I had no idea Salt was so complicated and politically loaded. Yes, 

[00:39:38] Dani Segelbaum: you should read Horse. It was incredible.

[00:39:41] Dani Segelbaum: Would 

[00:39:41] Jessica Sinsheimer: the Kens in Barbie like the book Horse? Do you remember how they were all obsessed with horses? Anyway. Yes, 

[00:39:46] Dani Segelbaum: yeah, I’m trying to think. Not in this way, probably. Not in this way, but I see what you mean there. But if we want to talk about the Barbie movie, I could talk about that movie all day. Yeah, do it.

[00:39:55] Dani Segelbaum: I loved that movie and I totally thought I was going to hate it [00:40:00] without having any idea what the book, the movie besides like Barbie was going to be about. But I came out of that movie and I was like, Oh, my God. You know, it felt like it felt like what every woman feels that somehow they were able to articulate that.

[00:40:15] Dani Segelbaum: No, I have personally never been able to articulate. I think I came home and gave like a 45 minute speech on the patriarchy to my fiance. He was just like nodding his head a little bit afraid of me. But I tell everyone I was like, 12 times. You guys, I haven’t seen it. You have to go 

[00:40:33] Jessica Sinsheimer: see it. Okay, new book idea.

[00:40:36] Jessica Sinsheimer: Someone write this, please. How to talk to your boyfriend slash fiancé slash male in your life about the patriarchy. Yes. Essentially, it was the Barbie 

[00:40:44] Dani Segelbaum: movie. Yeah. I told him, I was like, this is required watching. You have to go see this. I will go with you, but we have 

[00:40:50] Jessica Sinsheimer: to go see it. I also love that it’s very serious, but also very pretty at the same time.

[00:40:55] Jessica Sinsheimer: And I feel like that gives everybody something to be able to tolerate the [00:41:00] discomfort. And I think 

[00:41:00] Dani Segelbaum: every single woman sitting in that movie was sitting there going, like, right? Like, finally, someone understands what we feel every 

[00:41:09] Jessica Sinsheimer: single day. Julia, I won’t spoil it, but they talk about cognitive dissonance.

[00:41:13] Jessica Sinsheimer: It’s great. I 

[00:41:15] Dani Segelbaum: mean, I can’t wait. 

[00:41:17] Jessica Sinsheimer: Okay, if you had to write a book proposal, like, let’s say you wake up tomorrow, you’ve got a huge platform. Obviously, you need to write a nonfiction book. What would you write it about? I always 

[00:41:27] Dani Segelbaum: say I would never write a book. It’s like, you know how the sausage gets made, so you don’t want to do it in real life.

[00:41:36] Dani Segelbaum: Oh my gosh. I mean, so many of my agent friends are writers, too, and I’m like, oh god, how do you do it? Aren’t you exhausted? Um, what would I 

[00:41:46] Jessica Sinsheimer: write about? Also, the book is guaranteed to be a runaway success. 

[00:41:50] Dani Segelbaum: Well, then. Um, I’d probably write about making ice cream. my dog, Dottie, how to write the perfect nonfiction book [00:42:00] proposal.

[00:42:00] Dani Segelbaum: I’m, you know, I’m coming up with things that cross my mind every day that I’m, I would consider an 

[00:42:05] Jessica Sinsheimer: expert on. I’m picturing it kind of like that Amy Sedaris book about how to throw a party, where it’s like you get some how to’s about how to do it, but you also get these gorgeous photos. So Dottie’s in the background while you’re making gorgeous ice cream.

[00:42:16] Jessica Sinsheimer: Dottie’s in all 

[00:42:17] Dani Segelbaum: of the photos, absolutely. 

[00:42:19] Jessica Sinsheimer: And it’s definitely, like, a book where you’re talking about how ice cream can have a positive impact on your life and some other, like, important stuff, too. A meditation 

[00:42:27] Julie Kingsley: of 

[00:42:28] Dani Segelbaum: ice cream. Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Or we could say 

[00:42:33] Julie Kingsley: frozen custard. 

[00:42:34] Dani Segelbaum: Yes. Delicious. I love that.

[00:42:36] Dani Segelbaum: And it’s perfect. Cooked. Cooked, not just put in. 98 degrees outside. 

[00:42:41] Julie Kingsley: It is really hot. Dani, what’s your best advice for all the writers out there? 

[00:42:45] Jessica Sinsheimer: Patience. 

[00:42:46] Dani Segelbaum: This industry is so tough and, you know, it takes a lot of luck and a lot of patience, but just keep going, you know? There’s so many areas and room to give up, but if you are really [00:43:00] dedicated to your book, it will pay 

[00:43:01] Jessica Sinsheimer: off.

[00:43:01] Jessica Sinsheimer: I like that. It’s kind of like how, um, I’ve been thinking about platform building as like long term investing, right? Like you might not need it now, but someday you will really wish you started now. That’s great. I’m going to use that. Yeah. But you have to think of your future self and a future where things are not on fire.

[00:43:18] Jessica Sinsheimer: So step one, the world will be fine in this hypothetical. Step two, you will want that later. I love that. It takes time to grow with interest. Don’t ask me how it works. I work in publishing. I’m trying 

[00:43:29] Julie Kingsley: to think, do I have tips to stay patient as 

[00:43:32] Jessica Sinsheimer: a writer? I think everyone needs their secondary hobby so they don’t forget.

[00:43:36] Dani Segelbaum: Yes.

[00:43:39] Julie Kingsley: I mean, I think it is like, you always need to just be working on the next project. Like once, I think once a book is down the chute or once a project is kind of out of your hands. The only thing you can do with keeping that patience is put your energy somewhere else. Any other 

[00:43:55] Dani Segelbaum: tips you guys? I think that’s so true.

[00:43:57] Dani Segelbaum: I think my most successful [00:44:00] and Dedicated authors are always working on the next thing once they’re done with the first 

[00:44:05] Jessica Sinsheimer: thing. Yeah, find a new obsession. Like everyone needs that one topic that they can talk about for 30 minutes that no one else wants that deep dive into. Definitely. Yours. Go sit on 

[00:44:16] Dani Segelbaum: TikTok for 12 hours, find some video that resonates with you, and go for it.

[00:44:22] Dani Segelbaum: Or 

[00:44:22] Jessica Sinsheimer: just something you didn’t know about that sparks your curiosity. Like I, the way we were talking about that feeling of suddenly having all of these avenues open that you didn’t even know existed and new things that you didn’t know you didn’t know. I think that’s so important too. Absolutely. What is that quote?

[00:44:37] Jessica Sinsheimer: There is a… The cure for boredom is curiosity. There’s no cure For curiosity, well go get yourself some incurable curiosity, my friend. There’s no cure 

[00:44:46] Dani Segelbaum: for cure 

[00:44:47] Jessica Sinsheimer: for curiosity, it’s Dorothy Parker. It has to be dark. I 

[00:44:50] Julie Kingsley: love it. Danny, we’d love to give out a meeting with you. Sure. 

[00:44:53] Jessica Sinsheimer: Can you give the writers out there a code word to email us and the.

[00:44:57] Jessica Sinsheimer: person with that codeword will get a meeting with you. [00:45:00] Yes. 

[00:45:00] Dani Segelbaum: Um, what should my 

[00:45:01] Jessica Sinsheimer: codeword be? Ice cream? Sure. So the first person to email academy at manuscript wishlist dot com with ice cream in the subject line will get a code for a meeting with Dani, um, to go over their query and talk about ice cream if you prefer.

[00:45:16] Jessica Sinsheimer: All right, Dani, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. I had so 

[00:45:19] Dani Segelbaum: much fun. We are so 

[00:45:21] Julie Kingsley: glad that you joined us and as always, we appreciate your feedback. Just head on over to the iTunes store and let us know what you think. It not only helps us make this podcast be the best it can be, but it also affects our ratings within the iTunes 

[00:45:34] Jessica Sinsheimer: platform.

[00:45:35] Jessica Sinsheimer: We’d love to hear from you. If you’re feeling brave and want to submit your page for our First Pages podcast, you can send it to academy at manuscriptwishlist. com with First Pages podcast in the subject line. We’d also just love to hear from you. 

[00:45:51] Dani Segelbaum: And if you’d 

[00:45:51] Julie Kingsley: like to learn more about the Manuscript Academy and everything we have to offer, just jump on over to manuscriptacademy.

[00:45:58] Julie Kingsley: com. 

[00:45:59] Transcription by ESO. Translation by[00:46:00]