Julie Kingsley (00:00:00) – Hey everyone, we just wanted to let you know this is an amazing conversation, but it does cover some sensitive topics. Some of the things that this covers is abortion, grooming, and sexual assaults. So if you’re driving with young children or if you have some sensitivities, please check out the show notes before you proceed. I am so excited today to have a writer with us. We have Annie Cardi. Um, her new novel Red is coming out. I believe in this month. Is it January 20th? Is that the date 30th? January 30th. So congratulations. We’re so happy to have you.

Annie Cardi (00:00:32) – Congratulations, Annie. Yeah, thank you so much. So tell us about you. How how is your writing process going? How did you start writing and how did you find your agent. So the writing process has been very, very long. I was the kind of person who always loved writing. You know, when I was little, I would, you know, kind of tape paper together and call it a story.

Annie Cardi (00:00:53) – I like, would invite friends over and like, make them play writing games with me and my mom. Oh my gosh, that’s so cute. She had to like very popular. Oh yeah. Super popular. My mom had to take me aside and she was like, not everyone likes this. And I was like, what do you mean? You want to play like basketball or something? So I went, you know, I went to college and was an English major. After that, I got my MFA in creative writing. Um, so very much kind of on that track for books and for, um, for my, my first novel. Um, I had kind of queried agents for that. We worked together for a little while, I parted, we parted ways amicably, and kind of after that I was querying again, uh, connected with my agent with another book. So we went on a mission for that. I didn’t ultimately get picked up, but, you know, I was working with her, um, on the book that would become read, and she was really enthusiastic about it, which was nice.

Annie Cardi (00:01:51) – And, um, so, again, going through the whole submission process, um, was a lot, but it ended up working out kind of right in the end. And, um, yeah, I think from the, the, my, my writing side, um, I tend to be someone who, who is more of a pantser, as you say, where I just kind of come at it with a vague idea. I like plot happens and I don’t really know from chapter to chapter what’s going to happen next. And so for me, a lot of the writing process is a kind of discovery process and getting to know the characters and hopefully finding the kind of the right decisions for that character to make in that time. And yeah, I always wish I knew like I had a beautiful outline and could follow it exactly.

Julie Kingsley (00:02:33) – But I don’t know, I think we should put on a sticker. Plot happens.

Annie Cardi (00:02:37) – Yeah, right.

Julie Kingsley (00:02:37) – I was like, what happens? No matter what plot happens, it might not come out perfectly.

Annie Cardi (00:02:44) – But it’s gonna one way.

Julie Kingsley (00:02:45) – Or another, eventually. Oh my gosh, that’s great. I love that I like this image of you, the tiny you like, come over my house. We can play writing games, and I think there’s a bunch of our listeners to be like, yeah, I would have done that. Yeah. Right on. Yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:02:59) – We had all been at school together. Oh, like, oh my gosh, if only wouldn’t it been amazing if you’d all gone to school together? And the teachers are like, I don’t know what happened to that class. Right.

Julie Kingsley (00:03:09) – And I was like, I always thought, like, I looked up to you as a writer. And I was just like, oh, that girl’s got her act together and did it like you just. And like the way you’re critiqued and everything. But it’s like seeing people over these years, you know, and like, we’re all, like, doing different stuff. And it’s just great to see, like, your thought process in ways that you’ve gone through it.

Annie Cardi (00:03:29) – Oh thank you. And yeah, I get like I’m like I’m a Manuscript Academy fan. Um, so then again, I was like, oh, like, I love talking to Julie. Like you were one of my, like, first, like, writing friends. We’re like.

Julie Kingsley (00:03:42) – Yeah, yeah, we met, we met.

Annie Cardi (00:03:44) – Like way back, I remember you. So I had my blog and I was talking about, like, going to any CWI, and you had, like, emailed me being like, oh, I’m doing this retreat, do you want to come? And I.

Julie Kingsley (00:03:56) – Was like.

Annie Cardi (00:03:57) – It was humane to me.

Julie Kingsley (00:03:58) – Yeah, you’re kind of the main one. Yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:04:01) – I was I was like, I’m driving to Maine. I don’t know these people I know, like.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:07) – Is that how that’s so funny? I’m such a creeper. No, it.

Annie Cardi (00:04:10) – Was great because I met you. I met Cameron.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:13) – Albee was there.

Annie Cardi (00:04:15) – Um, Tim was there.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:17) – Tim was there.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:18) – Um, cam was there?

Annie Cardi (00:04:20) – Yeah. Um, Linda Hunt was there.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:23) – Liz was there. Lewis was.

Annie Cardi (00:04:25) – There. Um, yeah. All these wonderful people that I like would never have met otherwise.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:30) – It was so fun. That’s when I. I was an early hustler. Jessica. That’s when I was like that. I think I want to do writing retreats. And I was like, hey, I’m gonna do one in Maine at this woman’s house.

Annie Cardi (00:04:39) – It was great. Yeah. I was like, oh, I got to know all these people because you had emailed me and was like, yeah, that’s.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:45) – The one to me. We’re so cool because it was like a bunch of us just got to know each other through stupid blogs.

Annie Cardi (00:04:50) – Exactly.

Julie Kingsley (00:04:51) – Not my blog was your blog was was nice. Mine was like, guess what happened?

Annie Cardi (00:04:56) – Mine was like, here’s gifts also. Here’s links about. I was like, I am. I have a job where I’m at a desk most of the day and no one needs me to do things for a large swath of that.

Annie Cardi (00:05:06) – So here’s blog.

Julie Kingsley (00:05:08) – I had a Cow Shit Corner award. I’d be like, give it out to people I. Sorry. Oh, it’s just it’s so fun. It’s so fun to watch all you guys. And anyway, such a pleasure. So this is your second process? Yes. How have they been different? Um, so between, like, the first book and the second book and the first agent and the second agent.

Annie Cardi (00:05:29) – So really like ten years in between publication. So my first book, I large, I wrote kind of the first real draft of when I was getting my MFA. It was like my thesis. So after that, again, I started querying agents. Um, I actually had submitted for, um, in New England. There’s the Susan Bloom Award, and, um, it’s a group of kind of literary people, um, from various backgrounds, librarians, teachers, agents, publishers, and they select like, you know, two to 4 or 5 manuscripts a year.

Annie Cardi (00:06:02) – And as the kind of the prize you get to submit to, to editors and kind of bypass the submissions process. So that was where my first book got picked up by Candlewick, and I had a great experience with them. Um, and I was able to connect with my agent kind of simultaneously because I was querying at the time as well. And yeah, I feel like now it feels like so long ago, I mean, even the the marketing process was very different in that, like Twitter was kind of a thing, but we didn’t have Instagram, like, you know, I had a blog that I blog at all the time. Um, and yeah, it feels like a very different sphere now in terms of the marketing and publicity and yeah, this time around, um, again, my, my agent and I were just kind of on submission with it. You know, she had put together a list of editor she thought might be interested. We did a kind of like, you know, a more targeted round of submissions.

Annie Cardi (00:06:56) – Um, and then so that my book deals with reproductive rights and kind of during submissions, um, Roe v Wade was repealed. So we had a big conversation about, you know, what that meant in terms of changes for the book and what that meant in terms of submissions and how editors might be feeling regarding the topic. Um, and from there, we connected with my editor, who, you know, was really enthusiastic. And, um, you get the book deals with not only reproductive rights but also religion. And so it was I was really lucky to find someone who, um, was enthusiastic about dealing with kind of both of those aspects of it and, um, looking at it in a, in a way that was nuanced and sensitive. And I’ve been, you know, really excited that the marketing team has felt similarly and they’re excited about talking about it. So it’s it’s been really nice, especially for a book that I feel like has more kind of issues this time around to see the, um, the enthusiasm from the publishing side.

Annie Cardi (00:07:50) – Well, it’s tough to write fiction about.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:07:52) – Real life issues that are happening in real time. And, you know, they say the personal is political. The political is personal. In this case, you really show how everything can go sideways when it’s really not your character’s fault at all. And everyone is acting as if, well, I don’t know, how much are we allowed to like, at what point is it a spoiler? Yeah.

Julie Kingsley (00:08:13) – Can you can you give our listeners just a quick summer overview and we’d love to hear your first page after that. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:08:20) – Um, I think my pitch for it is generally that it’s a retelling of The Scarlet Letter centered around abortion and grooming, and I think, you know, it’s not really a spoiler in that. And like the first couple chapters, the main character seeks an abortion, she is pregnant. And very soon after she starts getting harassed because people in her community have found out that she has made this choice. So the book deals with kind of her, her reaction to that and her kind of finding empowerment personally, creatively.

Annie Cardi (00:08:50) – And she is, until she is able to kind of speak out in her community and inspire others to do so as well.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:08:57) – Annie, would you read your first page?

Annie Cardi (00:08:59) – I am ready, go for it. We have to drive to Maryland for the appointment. Mom got the earliest one available on a Saturday morning, so she could drive me there and home and still get to work for the afternoon shift. Also, I’m not supposed to eat or drink eight hours before the procedure, which mom says will be easier in the morning than the afternoon. We can stop for breakfast on the way home, she tells me if you’re hungry. I don’t know if I’ll be hungry because I’ve never done this before. Neither has mom, so she doesn’t know exactly either. That’s what we call it, though the procedure. We don’t call it what it is. It’s like we’re afraid to say the word like it’s a curse. Maybe it is. I know the kids in youth group would basically say as much this morning.

Annie Cardi (00:09:37) – They’re all at ignite, the annual fall retreat, where they do teambuilding exercises and share testimonials that are retreat center in the mountains. I went last year when mom and I were new to Hawthorne. It felt good to have people take my hand and give me a hug and tell me they were glad I was there. I imagine them all there again today, playing games and praying and learning to trust each other. I remember Lily pulling me into a hug with Bree, and the weight of their arms around me felt like relief. Alden would be with them, encouraging them all to put their trust in each other and in God, because with that, they can accomplish anything. When I was there last year, I expected that kind of thing to sound cheesy or disingenuous, but it didn’t. The way Alden said it, it sounded real.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:10:17) – Oh, gosh. I just realized hearing that again after reading the whole book. You packed so much. Oh, so much foreshadowing into the first page. Can you talk about how you did that and if it was a conscious choice or just worked out?

Annie Cardi (00:10:30) – I think mostly it just worked out.

Annie Cardi (00:10:32) – I think a lot of this actually was, um, was there like very early in the draft and I think, um, I think it was an idea I’ve been thinking about for a while. So kind of going into it, I was like, okay, I know the, um, you know, the characters that I really wanted to foreground. Um, and I like the ideas I was going to be talking about. And I remember, I think, uh, in my previous writing group, um, when I was in my MFA program, um, someone had mentioned that the first, either the first page or the first chapter was like a lesson for people in how to read your book. And I think I always take that with me in terms of like, okay, how do you set up this story so the reader can like engage either again, like even with just the very first page or at least the very first chapter as a way that they’re going to like, approach the rest of the story.

Annie Cardi (00:11:19) – So yeah, trying to like, fit this in there as like, this is what you’re going to take with you on this journey.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:11:24) – Can you expand on this idea of the lessons the first page should teach, and do you think it’s the same for every genre or for every topic?

Annie Cardi (00:11:33) – No, that’s exactly the same for every genre. But I do think that there’s a lot to be said for like these big broad approaches, whether it’s like, you know, this character, the voice, the tone, like really hitting, um, kind of these, uh, these hints of what’s to come. And again, whether that’s, you know, the, the voice of the character. And we’re really going to get into and follow this journey. Um, sprinkling in those, those other important people who are likely to meet or, or this sense of like, I am going on this particular journey, I have this like, particular need. Um, like in, in my first page, you know, thinking about her, thinking about all these other kids and they’re praying and she is thinking back to the retreat that she was at last year, um, which ends up being like a big part of the story that we flash back to later.

Annie Cardi (00:12:21) – You know, I mentioned her two friends from youth group who are, you know, very close to her. So, yeah, really trying to, like, set up those things as early as possible. So the reader isn’t just like, you know, spending pages with like maybe setting that they don’t need background information and then, you know, you’re like 20, 30 pages in before you find the other important character who is going to be with you for the rest of the story. But yeah, I feel like it’s that advice was something that like, I’ve started to really take to heart when I like either just start drafting for the first time or go back in revision and like start to like pick out, like, okay, what things have I missed that are in the rest of the book that need to be in, at the very least in that first chapter. It’s just so.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:12:59) – Interesting because you set these patterns and then invert them. So you’ve set these patterns of this is this amazing connection she has with these people.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:13:06) – And then suddenly they all shun her. And, you know, here’s somebody who she thinks is telling the truth. And then she finds out later he very much isn’t. Oh.

Annie Cardi (00:13:14) – Yeah.

Julie Kingsley (00:13:14) – So yeah, you also, it’s so interesting because after reading The Scarlet Letter, but you can almost feel that, like she’s detached, you know? I mean, like, there’s a detachment here. There is. It’s almost like it’s not happening. An emotional, you know, like otherworldly feeling, but also very, almost a New England puritan feeling. And I. And then you let us judge this situation just like the Scarlet Letter. This in this first page, we’re judging. She should be doing this. This? Has she thought this over? Is this a good idea? You know, and then we’re inverting into the youth group, and then we’re reverting into Alden. And like, The Scarlet Letter is that she wears it, and it’s so interesting. It’s all there on a page. Oh.

Annie Cardi (00:13:57) – Thank you.

Annie Cardi (00:13:58) – And I think for me, especially with that kind of that little bit of distance, I wanted to connect with someone who’s very young and they’re kind of overwhelmed. And they they never expected to be in this situation. They don’t really know what they’re doing. What if they’re doing is right? How is it going to end up? They’re feeling kind of pressure in a variety of ways. Um, so again, like feeling like they’re they just want to like get through this situation and think that, you know, she’s thinking that everything is going to go back to normal. And of course, that’s not the case because that’s the book. So yeah. Thank you. I’m so glad that connected.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:14:31) – I love her mom, by the way.

Annie Cardi (00:14:34) – Oh thank you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:14:35) – I think she set such a high bar for a mom who just has her daughters back no matter what, and still maintains a responsibility, but still just makes sure she is okay without caving to all of the pressure around them. Can you talk about the choices of how you made her that way? Yeah, I.

Annie Cardi (00:14:54) – Think, um, kind of initially I was like, okay, I want in in conceiving of the book, I was like, okay, first chapter. I want like test to basically be on her way to her appointment to get an abortion. And I was like, okay, who is going to be driving her? And I really did come up with her mom. I’m like, okay, she has she has someone to. Take her. She has like a guardian who is able to to do this for her. And I wanted her mom to be someone who was like a fully developed, rich character as well, who is both supportive of tests and like, loves her and wants to do anything for her, but also doesn’t understand her in some ways. You know, I think Tessa’s mom doesn’t really get why Tess wants to be part of this religious community. She she doesn’t have that connection. Um, and I think that, um, I wanted that kind of dynamic in that someone being, like, a really loving and good parent, but also being very different from their child and, you know, being overworked, being having their own stress and, um, yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:15:57) – And probably also coming from watching a lot of Gilmore Girls for many years and having that good, like, mother daughter relationship at the back of my mind.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:16:04) – Well, I think it’s so great too, because you give your readers an image of what it could be like and an image of things that they could not even know that they could expect from their parents. And I just think that’s lovely.

Annie Cardi (00:16:18) – Oh, thank you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:16:19) – And I think it’s something.

Annie Cardi (00:16:20) – That I like. I see more of her parents who are like, I’m friends with and have, you know, teenagers, young adults, um, and have really nice relationships with their kids. And maybe it is more of like a generational thing. As you know, Gen Xers and millennials have children, um, and are, like, emotionally available for their children in a way that maybe wasn’t encouraged in previous generations. And I think it’s something that either in a lot of books, you either see, like, you know, negative interactions with parents or parents who are very absent, um, which is also a real thing.

Annie Cardi (00:16:53) – But I wanted to test to have someone who is both, like, very much in her corner and like, loves her and cares for her and does still have a divide with her. About this particular topic.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:17:03) – Did you get any pushback having the mom be a real character in. Yeah, because I know some people have said that you’re not allowed to do that. Really.

Annie Cardi (00:17:10) – Like thankfully, like nobody mentioned that. I think everybody was like very excited to see her mom be like a real person.

Julie Kingsley (00:17:17) – That’s interesting.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:17:18) – I am curious, you said that your agent was speaking with you about how editors were feeling about this, given everything happening in the news. Can you tell us a little bit about what those conversations were like and if it helped you pivot editorially?

Annie Cardi (00:17:30) – Yeah. So in talking with my agent, you know, we were both feeling very raw about this, you know, and it was kind of conversations that we had had prior to the repeal of Roe v Wade, where we were saying, you know, obviously this is like a big topic, like, you know, looking at ahead of legislation that we thought might be coming, but I think we did want to both be sensitive to editors.

Annie Cardi (00:17:53) – And then, you know, anyone else in, in the publishing house would be reading it. And considering that it’s, it was a very sensitive time and people were having, you know, very personal reactions. But also, I think both of us felt very strongly about this kind of story being out in the world and also wanting to connect with readers, especially young readers, who might be either in situations where they are seeking, you know, abortions or reproductive care, or in communities where that’s really, you know, um, shamed. Um, so we we did feel strongly that this was something we still wanted to pursue. So we had to have a conversation about like, okay, what does this mean for right now? What are we going to pull submissions? Are we going to kind of wait things out, or are we going to kind of submit and like really try to find someone who can connect with us and also be a champion for it? And so that was ultimately what we what we decided on.

Annie Cardi (00:18:43) – I think it.

Julie Kingsley (00:18:44) – Was a great example of raising the stakes in like tiny notches. It struck me that this is a book, that it’s pretty contained, you know, it’s contained via its setting, via the people in it, via, you know, the situation. But then you have the the grandparents who are very religious crank and not you have her friend groups be from the youth group, even though there’s probably other kids in this community crank up a notch. You know you have being the new kid. Crank up a notch. There is all these tiny little things that you did that just added pieces of tension everywhere. So you have your main tension, but there’s all these little micro tensions. You know, her and her mom are sharing the same room. How does that make mom feel? You know, how does that make her feel as a young girl? You know, there’s just tons of that. Did you do that on purpose, or was that something that you really, you know, looked at or did you just pants did that just come right, right from the pants?

Annie Cardi (00:19:42) – I do think that was a little more intentional, especially thinking about it as a retelling of The Scarlet Letter, um, which I think like ties into that really well in terms of, you know, you have the big tension of this, you know, adulterous relationship.

Annie Cardi (00:19:55) – But again, like, it’s an insular community, it Hester Prynne has kind of gotten the boat over from England, like her husband is supposedly dead, but actually not. So all those little kind of notches get turned up in this very insular community. So I think that even though it’s a very like this is a very light retelling, I. I think those were kind of things that I wanted to pull in terms of, like just twisting the the knobs in all the surrounding areas.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:20:20) – Yeah, it’s interesting because you could have made her lose everything at once and then we wouldn’t have had a story. But because you slowly space it out and it’s almost like we watch this chain reaction grow and grow. It makes it so much more painful, but also it makes it have the tension that keeps the story moving just the way that she loses, you know, first her friends and then her community, and then the adults know, and then her grandparents kick her out. So she loses her house and then she loses her relationship.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:20:47) – And then, you know, it just gets worse and worse and worse. If all of if she’d lost all of that in one fell swoop, where would the other 200 pages go?

Annie Cardi (00:20:54) – Yeah. And they like that does happen in like, a compressed time frame where it’s like within, you know, that first week or so. But yeah, it’s like over several pages. So it’s like these steady falls until she is like much more isolated and kind of ends up relying instead on music and finds these new group and kind of starts to learn to find her voice again.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:21:15) – Did you talk with your team about emotional and aesthetic range? Because one of the things that I think makes this so readable is that, yes, these very difficult things are happening, but there’s fun and friendship and typical teen happy stuff too.

Annie Cardi (00:21:27) – Yeah. Um, so actually it was interesting when I had kind of my first marketing meeting, one of the team members mentioned that they had been talking with people at the, I think, Independent Booksellers Association, and he was saying like, oh, the thing that people really responded to was the music room friends.

Annie Cardi (00:21:44) – And like, people really were like, oh, yeah. And I think that was a thing that, um, you know, in people hearing about this, it was a connection for them, for a lot of people who are in, you know, the book world, we were probably a lot of like, artsy, you know, music room, art room, theater group kind of people. And I think in, in writing the book, that was something that I don’t think I was really consciously putting there. But like in, in pantsing, being like, okay, I need that kind of levity and these positive voices and of her way that wasn’t just going to be like a deep emotional drag on, on tests. Um, and so she is able to see like a path forward for herself and kind of follow that light as opposed to just, again, like drowning and everything that she’s lost.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:22:29) – Could we turn this into. Because I feel like a lot of people are talking about difficult issues out there.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:22:34) – How do they turn it into a story that will have all of these independent groups saying, oh, yeah, we responded to this other part, and it’s not, you know, too painful to read. People can still absorb it. Yeah. I mean.

Annie Cardi (00:22:47) – I think I could like drawing out the music storyline to it is like a big part of that. And I think the fact that it’s also a quieter book, I think even though, again, like there’s a lot that test loses right up front and, and even the fact that, you know, we get tests going to get an abortion within like the first chapter. I think that getting through that there’s, there is still a lot of kind of levity and positive aspects of the book to be found for the readers. Um, and, and I feel like that is more similar to, to life as well, where, you know, you’re dealing with any number of things that are very negative, um, you know, really tragic and traumatic.

Annie Cardi (00:23:27) – But there are also moments of like of levity and lightness and joy and love and connection to be found there as well. I remember do you do you all remember, um, A Ring of Endless Light by Madeleine L’Engle? Yeah, yeah. That was I feel like, you know, that was a big book for me when I was young. And I think that I feel like that book deals with that so much where there’s so much of that character dealing with like, loss and death, but like the conversations around, how do you carry that while also acknowledging, like, the good things and the joy and the love and not like discounting one in favor of the other, but being able to hold both at the same time. And I think that’s the kind of approach that I want to have in fiction that deals with, like really serious, heavy issues, but also offers that joy and hope.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:24:09) – It’s interesting that you talk about this as a quiet book, because I wouldn’t have thought of the finished product that way.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:24:15) – But yeah, I actually when I was looking for the information for this meeting, where to join in everything, I found an email from you from 2020 asking us about quiet books. Oh man.

Julie Kingsley (00:24:24) – Really? That’s so funny.

Annie Cardi (00:24:26) – I don’t even remember that.

Julie Kingsley (00:24:28) – Although during pandemic. Yeah, right.

Annie Cardi (00:24:30) – I know that was everything out of my brain in that year, right?

Julie Kingsley (00:24:33) – Oh my gosh, read it.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:24:34) – How can writers with quote unquote quiet novels work on their book, both in the pitch and the manuscript itself? Well, I would say you certainly answer that question and worked it out because your book has a very obvious commercial hook here.

Annie Cardi (00:24:46) – Oh that’s great. Thank you. That’s so.

Julie Kingsley (00:24:48) – Funny. Did you have a profound answer to the email? Uh, I’m sure I would give that to.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:24:52) – Probably not. Oh, I said, that’s a great question, Annie. Thank you. See you tonight.

Julie Kingsley (00:24:57) – Oh, that’s so funny. Well, I think it’s interesting because, I mean, in some ways I think this is a quiet book because it’s a lot of personal tension, you know? But there’s also Alden, and I think he represents more than Alden.

Julie Kingsley (00:25:11) – You know, he represents an. Jewish in the church and like that, that can be a dangerous place to go. You went there. And so tell us how you decided to to, you know, use that as part of your plot and you know, how you handled that in a way that he felt dangerous, but he also felt conflicted, too. You know.

Annie Cardi (00:25:33) – So I think that was something that, again, really tied back for me to The Scarlet Letter and reading it in high school, like, I remember being so mad because I was like, Hester Prynne is like shouldering this giant burden. Arthur Dimmesdale over here. He’s just like, done with his life. He’s like, oh, I feel really bad about it, but I’m.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:25:51) – Not gonna say.

Annie Cardi (00:25:51) – Anything like, oh, my guilt. And like.

Annie Cardi (00:25:53) – Everyone’s like, oh my God, you’re such a godly man. You’re leading our community. You’re so wonderful. So I was carrying that around for a while and thinking about, like, the kind of the differences of power and especially in, like a very religious community.

Annie Cardi (00:26:04) – And so kind of in, in writing this book, um, like a complicated story in which, you know, he is someone who Tess sees as very safe. You know, he’s a the group leader, and he he seems to be listening to her. Um, and the youth group and faith in general is something that really responds to and is positive for her in many ways. It’s not just like this terrible place that, you know, takes advantage of her and everyone is awful. So I think it was something that, like you said, you know, represents so much of this, you know, these abuses of power guys who, you know, take these roles to get access to young people. Um, and especially in a way that, you know, young women might think that they are in a consensual relationship and they’re really not. And so I think he, you know, kind of was standing in for all of that, but also surrounded by other good things where, you know, Tess throughout the novel, like, really, you know, feels connection to faith and to God.

Annie Cardi (00:27:02) – And she is not kind of put off by this, like, truly terrible experience that she has. And she wants to kind of reclaim her faith. So I think both in terms of looking at as, like Alden, as, you know, someone who is like a truly awful person and a stand in for, you know, many people who abuse power in, you know, whether it is faith settings, school settings, athletic settings, but also as someone who is part of a complex community dynamic.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:27:30) – Well, it’s interesting because you set up this community that is so warm, so helpful, so loving, but it’s all so conditional. Um, and it’s everything she needs for a little while, and then it’s everything that tries to destroy her after that.

Annie Cardi (00:27:43) – And I think she’s someone who comes in and she is like a, quote, nice girl. Like, she is very helpful. You know, she doesn’t have like, her mom was someone who, when she was a teenager, was like, you know, getting into trouble and, you know, butting heads with her with the grandparents.

Annie Cardi (00:27:58) – Whereas Tess is looking for that kind of nice group of friends who wants to go to movies and minigolf and kind of do kind of like volunteer work together. So I think she she fits in very well at first with this very conditional friendship. And I think her, like many of her friends, turn on her quickly and seeing that like, oh, they think she’s not who they thought she was, um, and assume like, oh, you did this thing that means you’re bad versus you did this thing that something happened to you and you had to make this decision. And it does end up being the right decision for you. And, you know, part of the book is not only test learning for her to be able to stand up for herself and kind of learning the complexities that she has, it’s, you know, not just thinking there’s either like a nice girl or not a nice girl. Um, but then also people in her community, seeing that this her situation was more complex and maybe everybody’s situation is complex.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:28:51) – So, Annie, tell us about content warnings and how they factored in here. So obviously.

Annie Cardi (00:28:56) – Again, some very heavy issues in this book. And people have, you know, various traumatic experiences with them. So even from when my agent and I were going to be on submission, we talked about including a content warning, you know, sending kind of the pitch to editors. And, you know, we did that, you know, mentioning that it covers the book, deals with abortion and grooming and sexual assault so that, you know, the editors could see that and think, you know, maybe this isn’t something they want to engage with or, you know, even just being able to go into it and knowing that was going to be kind of the the topics that they would be reading about. And I think in, in the book and the kind of the marketing for it, you know, it’s been something where it’s not like put immediately out, but it is something that like in the summary gets mentioned.

Annie Cardi (00:29:44) – And, you know, I talk about in my author’s notes and in the resources we share. So I think especially now, I actually really appreciate having content warnings. I think it’s good for readers and, you know, can really frame a reading experience in a very safe, supportive way where, you know, even as you deal with uncomfortable topics or something that might be difficult. I know I appreciate having a heads up about that. So I think it’s really helpful for readers and again, like in the submission process, um, so if you’re. If your book is kind of dealing with something like that, it might be something to consider whether, again, in the query and the submission or kind of in the summary.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:30:20) – Yeah, I think just even a quick content warning list of topics. Yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:30:24) – Exactly. Yeah. Like as a reader, I think that’s so helpful. And weirdly, I feel like that is something that fanfiction has done, like way more than. Yeah, like I feel like I’ve seen that in kind of fanfiction spheres, like way before it started being a conversation in like traditional publishing.

Annie Cardi (00:30:42) – So yeah, I think it’s a very good move. Good.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:30:45) – Thank you.

Julie Kingsley (00:30:46) – You have a lens and you use it really well like the writing lends. So at first, you know, the lenses. Oh, everything you know. Well I mean we start with this, this kind of, you know, obviously a traumatic experience for young girls, especially with, you know, the people there and everything else. But the lens as it’s looking at Alden, as it’s looking at the kids, it’s looking at the other girls in the program, use the lens really slowly and efficiently to bring us to understanding about the other girls there. And the lens gets bigger as we, you know, in this world as we go through it. And I think that is such a tool that writers use. And once again, I don’t know if you do this on purpose, but like when you expanded the lens towards the end, I’m not going to give that end away. But I was like, there it is.

Julie Kingsley (00:31:34) – Like it just like once the lens was expanded for me, it had everything that I wanted in it. It had redemption, female to female communication. It had like who was really godly, um, like this character that that is treated so poorly is really the, the most thoughtful or the most. So I mean, just by pulling it out a little bit, I thought that was perfect.

Annie Cardi (00:31:58) – Oh. Thank you. Um, I feel that that is something that I, I definitely wanted to I like it I like those kind of books anyway. And so I definitely wanted that to be this kind of story. And I think it’s also something that like for me, again, connected with The Scarlet Letter, where, like Hester Prynne wears her a for adultery. But like throughout the course of the book, like over many years, people come to see a as like Abel and they’re like, oh, maybe she’s not so bad. Like, he’s actually pretty cool. We shouldn’t have been shunning her for, like, ten years.

Annie Cardi (00:32:24) – Um, those.

Julie Kingsley (00:32:25) – Puritans I.

Annie Cardi (00:32:26) – Know, right? Oh, yeah. It was a kind of thing where I was like, oh, I do want that and that transformation in this. And to be able to, like, have a character that, like, finds her own strength but also is able to turn it outward.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:32:38) – So one of the things that I ended up finding on the internet, because it seems like the internet knows what you’re reading and gives you supporting documents, um, one thing I found that I found really upsetting is that apparently there are a lot more pregnant teenage girls than there are teenage boys who get them pregnant, because somewhere between 24 and 40% of those pregnancies are caused by men over 20. And yet we still talk about it as a problem of, oh, these teenage girls.

Annie Cardi (00:33:05) – Yeah, right.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:33:06) – And I think that one thing you do really brilliantly here is that you show that he almost has a script, he has a way of manipulating her that repeats and repeats and repeats, and she’s too young to know all of that.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:33:19) – And I actually think that one of the best things we can do to help arm these young women against all of this is show them that manipulation often does have a script and show them through story how it works. Can you talk more about that?

Annie Cardi (00:33:34) – Yeah. Um, I mean, I completely believe that statistic. And I think it is something that people who are, you know, like Alden, they’re so crafty and that I get that, like, it sounds very particular. It’s like you’re very special. You’re mature. You know, they seem like they’re really connecting with you when really it’s something that, like, they’re tweaking to say to any girl that they think is going to be be vulnerable to them. And I think that, you know, in, in situations like these that, you know, relationships that are abusive, that don’t even feel abusive to these young girls until later, um, because they think, again, it’s very special to them. Um, and I think that that, again, was something that I wanted to like, portray and kind of show the growth of in throughout the novel from test thinking, like, I am in a relationship with this person and we can’t talk about it because, you know, we kind of have to keep it secret, but it’s like a cool secret versus something that she sees throughout as being disingenuous.

Annie Cardi (00:34:34) – And not only was, um, Alden not being kind of genuine to her, but also this is, again, something that he has done to other girls and is continuing to do to other girls. And she like, she really can’t sit by at that point.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:34:47) – Yeah, I think a lot of the responsibility of, yeah, in the next ten years is going to be teaching through story all the things that we wish we could just give a bullet pointed list and be like, here are the things you shouldn’t fall for. But it’s about so much better.

Julie Kingsley (00:35:01) – The same thing, Jessica, because these are the conversations that we should be having in schools. These are conversations that a kid should read this book and go to her mother, or go to her girlfriends and say, you know, I don’t know. This isn’t. Like it seems like this person’s just being nice. Yeah, we’re just being nice. There’s been. There’s nothing going on. There’s just. Oh, it’s not just being nice, but by.

Julie Kingsley (00:35:22) – But by highlighting them these conversations, it can save. You could save kids with this book.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:35:28) – Oh thank you. Yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:35:29) – Like I feel weird saying, you know, like, oh that that was like I want to like, hand out pamphlets to, to people, but also like, I think when I was growing up, so much of the conversation around sexual assault was like, you know, being careful at parties, like, cover your drink, don’t accept a, you know, an unopened beverage from someone versus you might see a nice guy and he would say things that made you feel special and like, oh, he’s a little older. Like, well, you feel very mature. Like it’s something that I never heard of as a young person, and especially as a young person who felt that, like a lot of the guys in high school were just real tooths. And I didn’t want to really date any of them, but there was no conversation around like, oh, if someone is older and pursuing you, it might feel very special, but it’s completely different to be a teenager and a 20 something person.

Annie Cardi (00:36:21) – Even though you feel like you’re very close in age, you’re really not. And I think it’s something that a lot of young people like, they don’t hear in general. And it’s so easy to be in the moment and to hear what you know, someone is grooming you to say, and they’re saying all the things you might want to hear. So I do hope that, you know, readers can see this and, um, kind of start to pick up on that messaging so they can be a little more savvy when older people are being real creeps. Yeah.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:36:50) – And it’s also like, okay, at my school, we spent six months on that stupid unit circle in Trig. Never used it, still don’t understand it. Not have spent a day on red flags and relationships.

Annie Cardi (00:37:02) – Yeah, I feel like I remember in middle school I don’t even remember what the guys were doing, but like, my, my science teacher was a woman, and we had like, my little group of girls in science class and we were talking about various things like, you know, eating disorders and like friend group dynamics.

Annie Cardi (00:37:19) – And it was like a very casual conversation, but like dealing with real issues. And I’m like, I can think back to that so clearly and how like it was, I was not a popular kid, but it was like the popular kids had the same issues too, and like, it felt very, um, like we were it was very bonding for everyone. And again, like, I don’t remember the science we were actually doing that year. And I think those conversations can be so important for young people. Um, and I think like having a book that deals with this kind of thing is a good like, impetus for that conversation. Um, versus just like going up to someone and saying like, oh, hey, I’ve been thinking about, um, how older guys are trying to groom young women. Like, what are your thoughts about that? Like, it’s a lot easier to have a conversation about a fictional character and a fictional story. Yeah.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:38:04) – It’s interesting because we talk about gossip as a bad thing, and yet it’s conversation between women that often keeps them safe, and it’s conversations that often move the needle forward because it’s more complicated than any pamphlet can ever tell you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:38:18) – It’s not bullet points. It’s a story.

Annie Cardi (00:38:20) – Yeah. And I feel like that’s like the difference between, like, what we call gossip and like the whisper network and being able to, like, share information with other people in a way that is meant to, like, keep people safe but also feels uncomfortable to talk about. And again, like it’s helpful to have like either, you know, a book, a movie like a play, something that you can reference in a very quick and easy way, but also connect very easily with your own life.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:38:45) – Well, and if we call it gossip, then we have suddenly kicked out the moral necessity for doing something about it.

Annie Cardi (00:38:53) – Yeah. Um, and I think when you even when you say gossip, it sounds like, oh, it’s the thing that teen girls do and it’s so dismissive and reductive instead of like, allowing, especially again, like teen girls to have these kind of conversations.

Julie Kingsley (00:39:07) – I’m wondering, there is, um, Laurie Anderson after speak, she had all the letters of people coming into her, and the letters about all the girls that read speak.

Julie Kingsley (00:39:17) – And, um, she turned it into a poem that I used to share with my students when I taught at the college. I’m wondering, are you prepared to hear from your readers.

Annie Cardi (00:39:28) – When my first book that dealt with, um, mental health in the family, and I think that was something that I didn’t expect at the time to get response for people who had like family experience without a personal experience. So I feel like this time around, I feel a little more savvy about that. And knowing that that readers could respond to this in a very personal way and like wanting to be like, I’m not a counselor, I’m not a therapist, but to be like someone who is, um, seen as as supportive of those conversations. And, you know, in the book we have kind of an author’s note with resources listed. Um, so, like also being able to help guide people to professional resources, but like being aware that I’m like, oh, this is the kind of thing that people do want to talk about.

Annie Cardi (00:40:13) – And I think, you know, like we’re saying like they’re you’re not in high school having a conversation about, like, grooming or like reproductive rights. Um, but it’s something that you might be thinking about. And you, you need to have an opening for. Um, and like, I’ve done that as a reader where, like, if I’ve read a book that is like, really hit me in a very deeply personal way, like I’ve sent authors emails to be like, hey, this touched me in this very specific personal way. Like, don’t feel like you have to respond, but I just wanted to let you know that this meant something to me. And sometimes people respond, which is really nice. Um, so I think like both knowing that like I do that as a reader and then seeing the reaction to my first book, like, makes me, um, at least more prepared this time around.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:40:54) – Did you happen to learn through this process the best ways that someone can receive information like this? When the conversation comes up, and be a safe place for it so they don’t end up feeling shut down? Can you.

Annie Cardi (00:41:07) – Say more to that in terms of.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:41:09) – Well, there are so many people out there who are maybe thinking about tough conversation cause they’ve had friends bring up or things they would like to talk to their friends about. And I do think that conversation is probably the means through which this is eventually going to get better. Do you have any tips for people who are suddenly having these conversations? I think it really.

Annie Cardi (00:41:29) – Helps if you’re kind of nervous about the conversation, um, to it and you get like reference again, a book, a movie and like reference like, I find it very helpful to reference like a fictional world and I think to, oh, got a colleague mentioned recently, like listening to learn and not to respond and to to go into conversations like that with the intent more to learn than to like change someone’s mind or get a particular outcome to come with that kind of openness, you know, whether you are on a side of someone who, you know, is like has kind of heard things in a particular way all your life and maybe hasn’t, you know, had more kind of nuance about a particular topic or someone who maybe has experienced something that they feel very sensitive about and wanting to talk about, to kind of go into it with, with the good intent of the conversation and to be supportive as a listener and as a speaker.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:42:26) – Can you talk about some of the support of conversations you had editorially along the way? Because I imagine some people were like, this is amazing. This is going to change the world. Can you give us a lens into how that? So I think for like.

Annie Cardi (00:42:37) – Even starting off with my, my agent when I was like starting to work on this book, when I sent her kind of the initial pages and the idea, she was super supportive. And she is someone who, like, is both someone who, like, you know, goes to church, but also super feminist. And so we had a lot of conversations about the content of the book and dealing with things in a very sensitive way, kind of in the editorial process. One thing that I talked to my editor about was like, what Tessa’s choices are at the end of the story, around her response to Alden and kind of teaming up with other victims, um, and in looking at, um, kind of what would be like the likely outcome for a situation like this, which is not super great most of the time, but also kind of wanting to frame things in a, in a very active and very hopeful way.

Annie Cardi (00:43:27) – So we yeah, it was something where we’re like, okay, what can we find that still feels very realistic, but also something that we can approach in a way that is supportive and, um, and feels connected. To test this journey, can.

Julie Kingsley (00:43:40) – We give away a book? Jessica?

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:43:42) – Let’s go. Of course. Annie, do you have a code word that we can throw somewhere in the episode?

Annie Cardi (00:43:46) – Oh, um. Oh, that’s a really good one. Let’s say guitar.

Julie Kingsley (00:43:50) – Guitar?

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:43:51) – Oh, okay. So the first writer to email Academy at Manuscript wishlist.com with guitar in the subject line will receive a copy of Annie’s book. Hey.

Annie Cardi (00:44:01) – Thank you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:44:01) – Okay, so.

Julie Kingsley (00:44:02) – Did you feel exhausted when you finished this book? Did you feel elated? I mean, it’s a big topic, right? Like like do you have like, do you have a topic you’re going to hit next? Like, like, where do you go from here? Annie?

Annie Cardi (00:44:15) – Oh, so weirdly, like, I can finish this book.

Annie Cardi (00:44:18) – And I had written like three other manuscripts between my first book and this. So I think even though I was like, oh, this is big, and I like I was really connected to it and it felt like kind of a next step in my writing. It was also still not something where I was like, oh, now it’s going to go out in the world immediately. I was like, I don’t know what’s going to happen with this. Like, I’m going to send it to my agent and like, we’re going to like, you know, revise and then go on submission with it. But it wasn’t necessarily like I was like, oh man. Like now it’s going to take it step in the world. It was still very much like, well, we’ll see how it goes. So. So yeah, I feel like in a way it wasn’t like quite as exhausting just because I’m like, well, it could have just been on my computer forever. I love that.

Julie Kingsley (00:44:55) – Attitude. Like, uh, I don’t know either one out.

Annie Cardi (00:44:58) – So I was starting to work on another book recently and I was like, not, you know, it was a real major revision of something I had worked on in the past, and it just wasn’t jiving. Um, and I got another idea that I was like, oh, I’m like, I’ve been really excited about. And. It’s like that. Like very like big emotional, dark themes. But I it tends to be my like my interest for writing and real my jam like, oh, what if we made a book sad and traumatic like oh my gosh, wouldn’t that be fun to work on.

Julie Kingsley (00:45:27) – If I know correctly? Like, so your first book was before you had your kids, and now that you have kids, do you find that your attitude is different now that you have these littles in the house and, you know, does it make that process different for you?

Annie Cardi (00:45:41) – Like, if anything, I definitely feel more like more emotionally invested and like in a good way. And I think, you know, especially like with read, I was writing it like throughout like the, the pregnancies and births of both children.

Annie Cardi (00:45:57) – Um, and it was something that I was like, especially now as a parent, being able to think of like my child in that situation. It just like, again, like for me raises the personal stakes and, and like wanting to come at this story and in a supportive and like, thoughtful way. And then, you know, for what I’m working on now in a similar way, we’re thinking of like this, like, um, traumatic family situation and again, wanting to approach it in a way that that is very supportive of young voices and, you know, feels like realistic, but also brings like a nuance and a depth to that. So, yeah, I feel like that, like, weirdly, I’m like more jazzed about that kind of thing. Now.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:46:36) – Annie, I know that you have learned so much in this process. What is something you wish you had known going in as a writer?

Annie Cardi (00:46:42) – I remember like years ago, someone saying to me, like, if you you, the longer you keep writing, the more likely it is that everything will happen to you where like you’re gonna get on like a starred review, you’re going to get on the New York Times bestseller list.

Annie Cardi (00:46:57) – You’re going to get dropped by your agent. You’re gonna have like, an option book rejected. And I feel like going in it. I wish I had known that, like, there’s just a flow and it’s not like, okay, this one thing happens. Your career is over, or, you know, oh, this thing happened. You know, you got a good thing and it’s going to happen forever. And now you have to keep going to that standard all the time. Um, that it’s part of the business. And, you know, this is something that you, you don’t necessarily need to feel like, oh, either I need to keep going to a particular standard or things will fall apart, or one bad things happen to me or, you know, I feel like I’ve seen people like, get freaked out if they have a query and there’s like a misspelling in there and it’s like, oh God, I just sent this. And now this agent is going to see that I misspelled a word.

Annie Cardi (00:47:41) – They’re going to reject me immediately. And it’s like, it’s okay, it’s going to be fine. So yeah, having that kind of balanced approach to to writing and publishing and know that like it is all part of the process. Yeah.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:47:52) – So many writers seem to feel like if they have one tiny comment out of place, suddenly everyone’s going to know how much they don’t know.

Annie Cardi (00:47:59) – Yeah. What it’s like. No, I have commas.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:48:02) – Out of place all the.

Annie Cardi (00:48:02) – Time, every day, everywhere. And like, so do agents and editors and it’s all fine. We’re all people.

Julie Kingsley (00:48:08) – Well, it’s a human business. Humans are running the business, but then we’re humans going through our human lives that can, that can, that can make the art ebb and flow too, which is something to deal with, you know, like sometimes you’re just going through periods where everything’s just so rocky that you can kind of hold on to the writing, but it’s just not the same. And then you have those nice times so you can kind of like really dive in.

Julie Kingsley (00:48:31) – And I think it’s really, really important to consider as you’re embarking on this career, what.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:48:37) – Else did you learn or like? Is there anything that you can impart to our listeners? I was like, you should do it this way, not this way, or here’s how you do blank.

Annie Cardi (00:48:46) – I think from the pure writing standpoint, for me, like showing up is half the battle. Um, especially now with like I have a day job, I have kids, we have a dog. Like any like little writing time I can squeak out like makes a difference and it, like, can kind of build on each other where, you know, my my husband’s a playwright, so we’ll often like, we’ll do our normal workdays and then kids and dinner and bedtime and then like by 830, 9:00 now it’s our time to write. And for like half an hour to an hour and like that, that does add up. And it feels like it’s not much, especially when you can think of it like, oh, people who have, you know, many other resources and, you know, write full time.

Annie Cardi (00:49:26) – But just like being able to kind of squeak out that little bit of time and it keeps you moving. Um, I remember I think it was a professor at some point saying that, like, you live differently when you’re like, I think she was saying you live differently when you’re submitting. But I tend to think of that also, like when I’m like writing in like what I would consider a professional capacity, even if like a book hasn’t sold yet, but like coming at it with that kind of commitment where it’s like, okay, I’m kind of bringing the intention to the page and like giving myself that time to focus, even if it’s again, like for like half an hour, which feels like it’s not going to add up to much, but it does.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:50:00) – Yeah, that’ll certainly add up to more than half an hour on TikTok.

Annie Cardi (00:50:03) – Yeah, right. I can definitely sink half an hour into TikTok though.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:50:07) – What else? I mean, I just sorry, I know I keep poking around in this, but like, oh no, what other.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:50:13) – Yeah. What else? What else have you learned that could be helpful out there?

Annie Cardi (00:50:15) – Um, I had a very good relationship with my first agent, but it ended up being that, like, we weren’t jiving about what projects I should be working on. And for me, it was like, I have a wonderful writing group and I would like go to them and be like, oh my God, I don’t know, like she thinks I should be working on this. I really am not feeling it, I should be, I want to be working on this other thing and being worried about, like leaving an agent and like having to make that decision of like, okay, we’re going to part ways and worrying that it’s like that. I was going to be kind of adrift and like back to my starting point. And also that’s not really the case. So I think for me, like going through that experience was really positive in that even though I was like really angsty about it and like, I, I like had my email draft to be like, oh my God, I’m going to tell her that, that we should part ways.

Annie Cardi (00:51:02) – And then I’m so stressed. But it ended up being the right thing for me because I was able to learn what I wanted from an agent, kind of what books I really wanted to be working on. And you know, I went back to to querying and, you know, even though, like, it took several months, but I found an agent who really, like, is enthusiastic. And, you know, she’s very communicative. And we do brainstorming. And I feel like that seemed like a very scary experience. But like going through the the whole process, I’m so much better off where I am now. And I think that a lot of writers feel like, oh, if I like, made it to the phase of like, oh, I got an agent that like, if you decide to part ways because something isn’t working that is like, oh, now you’re taking a step back when it’s like, no, you are still moving along forward in your career and you’ve learned more things now.

Annie Cardi (00:51:49) – And maybe that agent wasn’t right for you based on communication styles or you know, what their priorities were for your career, or you know, any number of things that don’t have anything to do with your actual writing. Um, but I think can be a very scary thing if you’re a writer in that situation.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:52:05) – Yeah, I was going to say that must have been absolutely terrifying to take that leap and then to know that for months you didn’t know where you’re going to land. That must’ve been so scary. Yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:52:13) – Oh, definitely. Because I was like, oh my God, like, what if this was a wrong decision? Like, what if just no one’s going to want me anymore? And and I think even then, like, it was helpful to know that I was like, okay, the previous relationship wasn’t working anymore. And it was also really helpful, helpful for me to have writer friends at that point because I knew other people who had left our agents. So I like emailed people and I was like, hey, I remember you left your agent, you know, why exactly did that happen? And like, people like, shared their breakup emails with me, it’d be like, hey, this is what I said.

Annie Cardi (00:52:43) – Like, you know, in a way, that was it wasn’t any like, personal information, but it was just like, you’re like, here’s like a nice professional way to say it because you’re not like, oh, someone who, like, stole my money. And I’m like, you need to like, get away from them. It’s like this other agent was still very nice, but it just wasn’t working anymore. So it was very gratifying to hear from these other writers who had been through it and like, then went on to get other agents and sell other books, and it’s like, oh, okay. Like it’s again, like the things you don’t talk about in publishing where people are just posting like, oh, I got a new agent. I’m so excited. I sold a book. I’m so excited. Like people aren’t posting about my agent. And I parted ways. I’m querying again and terrified. But it happens all the time. And then later I was able to, like, share my breakup letter with other people to be like, oh, hey, this is the kind of thing I said, you know, like here, you know, here’s like the nice way to phrase it and like even the way to title your email because I was freaking out about that and like, other people didn’t know what to say.

Annie Cardi (00:53:39) – So it was really helpful to have like, a community of writers that I could be in contact with about something like this.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:53:45) – Well, and so much of this is relationships, right? And so much of relationships you have to process with other people because you’re going to have that, like, am I crazy? I don’t know, what do you think, writers, how’d it go for you? Kind of like in any relationship in our world is so relationship based. You’re generally not going to know everything in isolation.

Annie Cardi (00:54:03) – Yeah, exactly. And especially when all you’re seeing is, like, the very positive stuff and you think like, oh, everybody else is having, like getting book deals, getting agents, getting movie deals, like all these great things. So it can feel so isolating if you’re on the side of, oh, I’m going to take this step that I think is kind of scary and I don’t know how it’s going to turn out, and it feels like a step back. So yeah, it’s so helpful to to like get to know other writers and like develop these relationships.

Annie Cardi (00:54:28) – And even in querying again, like I even if I didn’t know like agents personally like I knew them from Twitter and so people would like see my query and be like, oh, hey, like, nice to see you. And so it felt more positive going in on that side where it’s like I had kind of developed a network where people knew me as like a nice, reasonable person. Um, yeah. Right. And I think that it felt a little better in knowing that, too. And it didn’t feel like just like taking a step back, even though I was so afraid to like part ways and kind of go back to querying.

Julie Kingsley (00:54:59) – I think one of the things that, um, that that writing and publishing is, is a huge mix of eyes in your own paper and be everyone’s cheerleader. Yeah. Like, it’s, it’s it’s, you know, like, those relationships are so important. But it’s also really important just to look down. What do I have to do next? I have to send out a query.

Julie Kingsley (00:55:17) – I need to write another page I need to like. It’s because if not, it is overwhelming.

Annie Cardi (00:55:23) – Oh, definitely. And it’s like you’re the only one who’s going to get your work done, but at the same time, like a it’s really nice to cheer for other people. Like my favorite day of the year is the Boston Marathon, because you get to go and like, cheer for strangers, like it’s the best thing ever. So I feel like writing is like that too, where, like, maybe they’re not strangers, but you’re like, oh, someone’s book is coming out. Someone got a really good review. Like, you can like pump up your friends. And those are again, going to be the people who were like, maybe you’re like, oh, hey, I’m going to send you a text because I lost my editor. Like they left the business and now I’m freaking out. Like, I know you went through something like that. And just being able to have those people that you can connect with when like times are tough or you just need to vent.

Annie Cardi (00:56:04) – So yeah, it’s so much of it is like is developing those connections. And I know especially like with like literally ten years between books coming out for so long, I was like, oh my God, I’m falling behind. All these other people have multiple books out. They’ve had movies, they’ve had wonderful, you know, accolades, you know, who cares about me anymore. But people were so excited when I got the deal announcement for read, and I was like, oh, that’s really nice. Like, these.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:56:27) – People are still.

Annie Cardi (00:56:28) – Friends. And like, even though, of course, like no one had ever sent anything mean or acted like I was nothing. Like they’re all so wonderful. But like, it was so easy for me to feel like, oh, I’ve just completely fallen behind, um, with this, like, span of ten years when when again.

Julie Kingsley (00:56:42) – You sounded a little bit like Tess there. You sound a little bit like Tess.

Annie Cardi (00:56:46) – There we go. It’s an emotional connection.

Annie Cardi (00:56:48) – Um, but, yeah.

Annie Cardi (00:56:49) – When you build a community, like, it’s. It stays there.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:56:52) – This almost makes me want to. Makes me wish that we could have a library of. I’ve been through blink. Ask me about this. Right.

Annie Cardi (00:57:00) – Because again, like, all you see is like, oh, this person has an agent, and you don’t know that. It’s like, actually it’s their third agent because like, someone else decided to be an editor and someone else, you know, like their their agent was in emailing them for like months at a time. So they had to break up. Oh yeah. Like I’ve heard that one too. Like people like basically going M.I.A. Wow, I know, right?

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:57:22) – Well, but that’s the sort of thing that you would only know from people, you know, telling about this in a narrative way.

Annie Cardi (00:57:28) – Yeah. And it’s so like refreshing to hear from people being open about things. And again, like, it was so wonderful when I was like, okay, I need to break up with my original agent.

Annie Cardi (00:57:38) – Um, that like other people were like, hey, it’s okay. Like I’ve been through it. Here’s what I said. Here’s probably how she’s going to respond because she’s a professional person and like and of course, again, like my agent was like, oh yeah, I totally understand. Here’s the language we need to part ways. And um, but like going into it, I was so terrified. And so it was really nice to hear from people who, like, could had been through it and could talk me through it, even though it wasn’t something that you’re going to, like, advertise on Instagram.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:58:02) – Were you afraid that she’s going to be like, and you’ll never work in this town again?

Annie Cardi (00:58:06) – I feel like it was it wasn’t even something that I was like, oh my. Like, she’s not like a vindictive person, but I was just like, oh my God. Like, are we going to get into an argument about this? Like, oh no. Like you’re not like, you can’t break up with me or you have to do something where I’m like, like logically, I knew that I was like, oh, we we had had a conversation and we’re like, oh, we have different priorities about what I should be working on.

Annie Cardi (00:58:28) – So I was like, I’m sure she’s not going to be super surprised. But yeah, I was just this anxiety of like, oh, I’m going to like, get in a fight with someone about our professional careers, when of course, that wasn’t the case at all.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:58:38) – And also, we don’t see it as a red flag if you worked with somebody else. We know that not everyone’s going to line up on the hundreds of ways you have to line up to be a good fit with your agent.

Annie Cardi (00:58:47) – Actually, I was just talking about this with another friend who very recently parted ways with their agent, and they were saying that, again, like returning to querying can feel like very overwhelming at first and feeling like, oh, it’s a step back. But in your query you’re seeking new representation. And so it’s like, oh, you know, someone has seen that you your stories are strong and, you know, could be published. Um, so I feel like there’s, you know, kind of that upside where it’s like, okay, this again feels very scary.

Annie Cardi (00:59:16) – But if you’re a writer who, you know, is again, like really kind of working on their craft and is like a polite, good literary citizen, then agents are going to see that.

Jessica Sinsheimer (00:59:26) – Do you have a few quick bullet points on how to be a good literary citizen?

Annie Cardi (00:59:29) – Definitely. You can like pumping up your fellow writers like I, you know, on Instagram or something. If I see someone has like a good review post or, you know, they they want an award or something, I’ll like put it in my stories. So yeah, like reading other people’s books, um, and talking about them in terms of like querying, like reading people’s like submission requirements, like being polite and like responding in a nice, normal way in the, in the query. I think like only people get very worried about like, is my query perfect? Like, do I have, like the lines crafted? Exactly right. One is, it’s very easy to remember that like other people are just emailing any random agent and saying, like, here’s my book.

Annie Cardi (01:00:11) – It’s going. To be the next Harry Potter meets, James Patterson meets Star Wars. You’re gonna buy it or else. And I’m like, oh, those people are not at all good literary citizens. So like, if you’re just emailing me like, hey, you know, here’s my query, here’s my ten pages as requested, like, let me know if you want more. Like, that’s all you need to do. Um, yeah. I feel like those are those are my two big things, like follow people’s directions in general. And oh, and like saying please and thank you. Like. And now I’m working with my editor and the marketing team. Like, I’m just so excited to have a marketing team. They’re delightful. And so if they ask me for something and they’ll say like, oh, you know, is is this deadline okay? Does that seem reasonable? I’m like, oh yeah, thank you so much. So like, like responding to people in a way that, that you would want to be treated on the other side of the desk and like having done like some work in publishing and like, you know, like textbook publishing and nothing fancy, um, you know, when people are nice to, like, assistants, you know, it really says something.

Annie Cardi (01:01:10) – And, you know, having been an assistant, like, it made a difference for me where I’m like, oh, this person was so polite and I wanted to help them versus people who are just, like, really rude and don’t care about you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:01:20) – Yeah, I will say that I would tolerate a fair amount of rudeness from writers to me directly, but be mean to my intern and you are done, right?

Annie Cardi (01:01:28) – Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s like being rude to the receptionist. I’m like, if you were rude front, I. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. I know you just want to be polite.

Julie Kingsley (01:01:37) – Small world. And it’s just the way, you know, where you put your feet out in front of you every day as a writer and what you’re putting on Twitter and yeah, how your talk, speaking of the world is really important, such like such a delightful end to this conversation. I am just thrilled. Any where can we find you online?

Annie Cardi (01:01:55) – Um, so I am found on antiquity.com and most social media platforms as any party.

Annie Cardi (01:02:02) – So if you Google that that’s probably it’s you’re either going to find me or sweaters um that are anti cardigans. So you know either one is going to be good.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:02:12) – Yeah. Well I am pro cardigan as you can see.

Annie Cardi (01:02:14) – They’re so great. So um so either way you’re going to find something good.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:02:18) – I was wondering if in a couple of months we could check back in with you and hear how it goes with your correspondence after this book comes out.

Annie Cardi (01:02:25) – Oh, that would be great. Oh. Thank you.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:02:27) – Yeah, this is going to be an important book, and I hope you get only nice letters about people appreciating it. You know, you’ll probably get a few that are like, how dare you encourage teenage girls? We hate.

Annie Cardi (01:02:39) – You. I know, and, um, I mean, I know like in going into, um, the, um, editorial process, I had a conversation with my agent where she was like, you know, I was talking with your editor, and we were both saying, like, you should expect to be banned or challenged as opposed to thinking that it might happen.

Annie Cardi (01:02:58) – Um, yeah. So I think that again, like, kind of thinking about, like the responses, that is something I go into it like kind of expecting.

Julie Kingsley (01:03:04) – It’s ungodly to show what could really happen in a place of worship.

Annie Cardi (01:03:09) – And I think, like what we’ve seen from so many like bands and challenges, people just see the summary or someone else tells them something about it and they never actually read the book. They just want to get it out of the hands of readers. Um, like thinking about like, like wonderful books that I have read that like, have had like, really like scary reactions to them. Um, you know, it’s it’s so upsetting for the author. Um, but I’m like, I love those books so much, and I’m so glad that they’re in the world. So I’m kind of trying to take that into this process.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:03:41) – I wonder if we’ll get to a point as a society where if you’re not getting hate mail and you’re not getting banned, you haven’t been brave enough.

Julie Kingsley (01:03:49) – Yeah, that first page is very brave.

Annie Cardi (01:03:52) – Oh. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like it’s something where I’m, like, definitely nervous about that kind of response, but also thinking I’m like, oh, I would this isn’t something that I would like, not want to share with someone else. Like no matter kind of their beliefs. I’m like, oh no, this is still very important to me. So yeah, hopefully feeling feeling brave as this goes on.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:04:11) – It’s so sad that it’s brave to talk about something that is factually common.

Annie Cardi (01:04:16) – Right?

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:04:16) – And like.

Annie Cardi (01:04:17) – I mean, I remember being like a pre-teen and watching Dirty Dancing and like asking my mom about like, the like pennies abortion plotline in that. And I was like, why does baby have to lie to her dad to get this money? Also, can.

Julie Kingsley (01:04:30) – I go with a guy that’s like 40 years old? I don’t know what it was.

Annie Cardi (01:04:36) – But I was like, oh, this is something where I was like, this was such a formative experience for me.

Annie Cardi (01:04:41) – Like as a young viewer. And again, like it was like that was a part of life at that point. And I think like hoping that, you know, this book is similar in that like, people can kind of take that and think like, oh, this is happening. This is a not only like a situation for, you know, teen girls, but also like people of like many different ages, backgrounds, life situations. And there’s so much nuance to it. And we should be able to provide like safety and care for people.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:05:11) – Yeah, I think that. Nuance is the way forward, but we often need longer form content.

Julie Kingsley (01:05:16) – Hopefully it’s a pendulum and it’s swinging back, you know? So at least hopefully.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:05:22) – You’re like kids. Attention fans these days. They can’t with TikTok. They need those 500 page books.

Annie Cardi (01:05:26) – There we go. Well, it’s kind of like how a couple of years ago, um, sea shanties came back. Yeah, yeah. We’re gonna have like.

Annie Cardi (01:05:33) – Like really thick.

Annie Cardi (01:05:33) – Tomes come back.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:05:36) – I hope so. Stomping a lot of doors. Thank you so much, Annie. I’m so happy for you. I’m so happy this book exists. I’m so happy publishing supported you. I’m so happy that you are about to really just do the responsible thing here and leave the next generation better than you found it.

Annie Cardi (01:05:54) – Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And yeah, we’ll see you guys again soon.

Jessica Sinsheimer (01:05:58) – All right. We appreciate you. Thank you for being here. Bye bye.