juliapostauph

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Manuscript Academy Podcast, brought to you by a writer and an agent who both believe that education is key. The beauty is the people you meet along the way, and that community makes all the difference. Here at the Manuscript Academy. You can learn the skills, make the connections, and have access to experts all from home.

[00:00:26] I’m Julie Kingsley. And I’m Jessica Z. Put down your pens, pause your word counts, and enjoy. Hello everybody. We have a very special experimental episode for you today. We met Julia, who is a writer who has gone through three rounds of revisions, each one leaps and bounds ahead of the last, and we’re so proud of her and we wanted to talk with her about the process and how that happened and hopefully showing you some queries that went from good to better to I think pretty great.

[00:00:57] Um, can show you the things that a query letter [00:01:00] needs. And teach you some lessons along the way. So, Julia, tell us about you. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I genuinely look forward to this all week. I am 23 and I am currently in a master’s program right now, um, at a, at a college in my state. And so I go to school full-time and then I write.

[00:01:19] All the other times, like a lot of people who are juggling probably what they would refer to as their real lives with their writing lives. So this is not my first book I’ve written, I’ve written, um, three or four now. But this is the one that at this point I feel the most confident in and the one that I’d say I’ve put the most work into as far as the querying process and really making sure my query is at the same level as the book that I’ve worked forever on.

[00:01:43] I love that so much. So tell us where you are in the process. So, You’ve done three queries. Have you queried out? Are you waiting? Like, tell us how that all that’s going. Yeah, so I haven’t queried yet. I have done three query critiques with Jessica, which have, as she alluded to [00:02:00] completely in my mind, transformed the query and really helped.

[00:02:02] To me a lot. Before that, I had previous meetings with agents through the manuscript academy and of course I’ve gone through friends who are writers as well as, um, my twin sister who helps a lot with writing. And so I’ve been working on this query for a while and I kept getting feedback from both, uh, friends who are writers as well as the agents I met with.

[00:02:21] And they were saying things like, this is a good query, this is a solid query. And I thought, great, but you know how many submissions agents are getting all the time. I’d like to go a little beyond. Solid. A little beyond Good. And when I met with Jessica, she just really emphasized that this was a solid query.

[00:02:36] It was good, but we could make it better and we could really emphasize certain aspects of it to make it better. And I think that that’s really what I held onto throughout this process is what really needs to be in there. Can you tell us a little bit more about how your twin. Helps you write? Yes, absolutely.

[00:02:52] So her name is Caitlyn and we are best friends. We actually live together and we’ve been best friends since birth. So [00:03:00] it’s just a phenomenal partner to have in any aspect. But as far as writing, she’s been invaluable. She read my first draft, she’s been with me. In high school when I started really seriously writing books and you know, I was that kid in high school that would sit in class reading through the guide to literary agents and everybody knew I was writing a book.

[00:03:19] I even queried a few agents in high school. Probably a good thing that that didn’t go anywhere, but I did. So she was, has been there. From the beginning, and she really helps with those initial drafts. Now that I’m a little bit more experienced, she gets to read more polished drafts, so I think that’s a little more fun for her.

[00:03:35] But she’s instrumental in helping with editing ideas and as well as the query process. Whenever I get feedback with my query. Jessica, after our meetings, she is the first person I go to and we brainstorm together and we say, okay, what can we, what can we do? How can we fix this? So she’s a great partner to have.

[00:03:52] She actually loves researching agents as well, so that’s a part that she really enjoys doing, which for me, I think. Even the [00:04:00] bravest writer is intimidated by the querying process. So to have somebody also so dedicated, it’s amazing. She sounds like an agent. An agent in an agent in the making. Oh my gosh, what a phone of you is a writer.

[00:04:11] That would be so cool. And one of you turns to an agent. Oh, we’ve talked about that. She definitely says, she’s always like, I want Jessica’s job. She doesn’t, but anyway. No, I know. She’s, she’s a little hesitant. I told her, I was like, you know, I’m not sure you really do. It’s much more difficult than you, than you know.

[00:04:27] But you never know. Okay. So you have the solid query, you’re getting feedback that it is solid, but it’s not singing as you would prefer that it does. Yeah, absolutely. So I think there’s this interesting part of the querying process where you get to a place where you have a draft that it is solid and for some reason I’m thinking about it, maybe ’cause I need to do this, I’m thinking about it in terms of organizing your closet.

[00:04:48] You look at it, you open the doors, you’re like, It’s basically fine. Nothing’s falling on me, but then you’re like, I’ll change this thing and then I’ll change this thing. And before you know it, everything’s on the floor and you’re like, what have I done? [00:05:00] But the everything on the floor is kind of the necessary stage for getting to where you are, that you open the doors, everything is where, where it is that it should be.

[00:05:08] Everything’s out here and your shoes are all laid out. Maybe you even have some cute lights that turn on when you open the doors. I want those kids on TikTok swear that they’re easy to get on Amazon. We’ll find out. But yeah, I think it’s. So interesting that you have to go through this phase of like breaking everything into pieces to reassemble it again.

[00:05:24] Can you talk about like where you started and what some of those pieces were? Yes, and I really loved that analogy because it really was like I was just putting everything on the floor and looking at it. ’cause I think you’ll see from the, the first one that I did with you, it’s just everything’s in there and I think it was, there came a point where I needed.

[00:05:41] Decide what could be cut, which I think is pretty normal. Everybody just tries to cram everything in there. And I, of course, I still have a, a longer query. I would say it’s a little bit longer than maybe some people who really, really pare it down, but it’s fantasy, so that’s to be expected. But I think for me, the things that really stood out to me in the meetings were [00:06:00] imagery.

[00:06:00] So that was something that I really wanted to include. I was, Saying things like She has magic or there’s a fantasy cruise ship. But I wasn’t necessarily showing those things. And so I think that was something I really held onto in continuous drafts, was trying to actually show what I was saying. And then just that there’s a lot of uncertainty in querying, I think, and a lot of uncertainty in creating that query.

[00:06:22] So something that one person tells you. This needs to be in there. Somebody else is gonna say it doesn’t. So you have to listen to yourself in some ways and also make sure that the person that you’re getting to critique your query you really trust. And I think that that’s something that happened for me with you, Jessica.

[00:06:36] I just, because you were so encouraging, because you really took time with me, so much time with me way more time than I ever expected. Um, I was able to really trust that you cared where this was going. So that was something I really kept in mind was making sure that I trusted the critiques I was getting and made sure I was still listening to my voice, but also implementing that imagery and keeping the query more focused.

[00:06:57] I think it’s so curious too. So you go into these situations [00:07:00] with any, any beta reader, whether it’s. Agent or editor or you know, an industry professional or a friend or a sister, like did you have a sense of what was wrong with it prior to, or did Jessica just come at you with things you hadn’t even thought of?

[00:07:15] I think it was a mix of both. I think I knew I would read it and I would tell Caitlyn. I would say I like it, but I don’t love it. I would say, I love my book. You, Caitlin, loves my book. I should be saying that about the query. This is all they might read. So I wanted to be as excited about the query as I was about the book, which we all know is somewhat impossible, but at least get close, right?

[00:07:35] So that was important to me. But I think there was a, a couple turning points for me where Jessica was really the one to suggest something that I hadn’t seen myself. And one of those turning points was just determining what the. Pitch of the book was, and I think I remember saying to her at some point, I said, well, you know, because my, the pitch of my book is that it’s a magical cruise ship.

[00:07:54] And she kind of paused and she said, well, that’s fun and that’s exciting. Don’t get me wrong, but there’s actually [00:08:00] something more here. And I think really me diving into the character’s journey and who she was, In her world. That was more of the pitch than necessarily the fantastical place that she ends up.

[00:08:11] And so I think that was a big turning point for me. We ended up doing more with parallels as well, making sure that what she experienced in the beginning of her journey is then kind of paralleled later on. So those were fun things that were turning points for me and things that I definitely hadn’t thought of, of my own.

[00:08:26] Maybe I would’ve gotten there at some point, but not sure. One thing that I often say about works that are sci-fi or fantasy is that it is so hard to make it clear to someone who doesn’t know your world yet, and I remember us working a lot on clarity. Do you remember any of that? Yes, I do. And I think especially when I went back and reread the, the first draft I went with, I did with you, I think I realized how much I’d worked on clarity and um, and I think sometimes I can confuse clarity with length.

[00:08:58] I don’t think that they’re necessary. [00:09:00] Necessarily and synonymous. They’re intertwined. But I think I thought, oh, well, I’ll just cut some, cut some sentences or cut some words. But that’s really not where the clarity comes in. It’s about making sure that everything you’re emphasizing needs to be there and everything’s important and serves a purpose.

[00:09:16] And I think Caitlin and I were actually talking about this today, where we were saying that every word choice, They evoke different images and evoke different feelings for people. So I think that that matters so much in a query when someone may only read your first paragraph or may only absorb that first paragraph.

[00:09:34] So I do remember that. I’m curious if we’re at the stage where we should read. I was just thinking that the work, yeah. Um, Julia, would you please read us version one? Yes. So this version was from April I believe. So I’m gonna go ahead and read it. You’ll notice some similarities, but definitely some differences.

[00:09:52] Dear Agent, I’m excited to send you trial by cnc. Spirits, a young adult fantasy complete at 94,000 words with serious potential. [00:10:00] It combines the Enchantingly dangerous setting in sibling bonds of Emily j Taylor’s, hotel Magee, and the generational family Secrets of all the Stars and Teeth by Adeline Grace.

[00:10:09] This book features Acru of Setting Found Family and a major character with a chronic illness. Inspired by my own 17 year old Rosaline Ro DeMarcus never holds back when raising spirits of the dead. It might spare her some trouble. As amorphic a descendant of witches r must pass a high stakes trial to keep her treasured morph.

[00:10:27] Magic failure means single handedly disgracing her esteemed family and ruining her plans to follow in her deceased brothers footsteps as a hunter of dangerous morphic. That is unless she’s willing to serve a punishment sentence on the celestial cruise ship. A vessel that keeps extracted magic out of the realm for a chance at a retrial to rose horror.

[00:10:46] She fails her trial and makes the difficult choice to join the staff on board. Seeing as her family was responsible for creating the trials and ship that protects the realm, the shame is almost unbearable. High paying guests experience the thrill of morphia magic without limits. The Morphic [00:11:00] staff compete to earn guest votes for a retrial between starry shades of magic and extravagance.

[00:11:05] Bosses chop appendages for mistakes and hallways attack workers after dark. Now labeled a dangerous morphic herself rose thrust into a twisted popularity contest against staff members who are more experienced and just as desperate. While serving as personal concierge to a family of pretentious guests, Roe receives help from a talented Ariel silks performer with the ability to ship his painted nails into claws with charm and frustrating honesty.

[00:11:28] He makes her question the purpose of the ship and the legacy of her family. When Roe is framed for a guest’s murder, she realizes that the only way she’ll escape the celestial alive and with her magic. By challenging the rules she once believed in and her family who helped create them. And then the bio, it’s a good bio.

[00:11:44] Read the bio. Okay. I’m a graduate student in mental health counseling with a tendency to scribble plot points in the margins of my school notes. I’m a member of S C W B I Manuscript Academy, and I live with my twin sister in Orlando, Florida. When I’m not writing, you can find me on local weekend adventures and [00:12:00] adding to my growing wall of bookish fan art.

[00:12:01] I love that. Okay, so I am looking at my notes. Here. So when I went through this, I was, I was reading this at the same pace as an agent would, a query inbox. So it was like, okay, here’s this, here’s this, here’s this. My first note is that I liked the opening. I think that was really interesting. I wasn’t sure what never holds back the meant there was the high stakes trial.

[00:12:22] I was wondering if that happened to everybody at certain ages. Julia, are you okay with me actually share sharing, not just your query, but my notes on it too so people can follow along. Oh yeah. I’m. Okay, great. Um, so I was just having little questions throughout, like, why are we going into theoretical punishment if this hasn’t happened yet?

[00:12:41] I’m wondering if it was just for stakes. I wondered what kind of punishment it was. I wondered what kinds of difficult choices. A lot of this. Is in the hypothetical, and we talked a lot about that, how all of this could be stakes that are possible, but not necessarily going to happen no matter what. Just [00:13:00] so much to take apart here.

[00:13:02] So let’s just go through a lot of this. We were talking about, I had a lot of questions about how everything worked, why it was all working, why her family created a system where people get chopped up, and we talked about all of that. So how did we address all of those questions? Yeah. So first of all, even just reading it, I think I even go, whoa, it’s a lot.

[00:13:24] So, um, I think that it was a lot of deciding to put more concrete examples of what she was going through rather than, like you said, keeping so much of it in the hypothetical, I think that there was a lot of, Questions because there’s always gonna be questions and queries ’cause you can’t possibly put everything in there.

[00:13:42] But the problem is, I was opening up the door for so many questions, but it’s like there may not be a reason to have all those things in there if you can’t answer them in that query. And I think too, another thing that I. Really wanted to keep in mind as well was if you were having all those questions, somebody else was [00:14:00] too.

[00:14:00] So really emphasizing what that trial, what that trial was like. What, you know, I think we have a little comparison in our future query to kind of give people an image of, oh, okay, I, I can see what this trial is like in this world. And, um, what are those bad things that happen and what are the. Beautiful things that are there.

[00:14:19] And I think too, really showcasing her journey, not just as a staff member, but also as a person. You know who she, how she essentially transforms from this affluent person who’s really gotten to be proud of her magic her entire life. And then realizing that now she’s serving the same people that she used to.

[00:14:37] Invite to her mother’s teas or used to be having a ball with. And so I think that those were things that really transformed from the first one. If I had gone in and edited this, I would’ve asked many of the same questions, just so you know that I, I totally agree with what Jessica said. Sometimes I think with fantasy, you really need to like render down to the core and really stick with your [00:15:00] core.

[00:15:00] You know, messaging and you’re right, concrete and stakes really there, but there’s other things you can just kind of leave, you know, because once we’re living in your world, in your manuscript, it’s gonna come out fine. Oh, exactly. I, it’s funny when I start looking at all of the details, even I. There was a line about her deceased brother, and I’m like, oh, that’s not in there anymore because you don’t need it.

[00:15:20] Of course, there’s, that’s the fun thing about actually reading the book. You’re gonna explore so much that isn’t in the query, so you don’t wanna put all of it in there and not leave any surprises. Yeah. I like to talk about the ratio of questions asked to questions answered, and right here you are raising a lot of questions and not giving us enough answers, so you have to get this balance rate right.

[00:15:40] You don’t want us to be confused. If we have too many questions and you don’t want us to feel like we know so much, there’s no point in reading the rest ’cause we know everything. Um, and so I guess it could be kind of, um, a spectrum. And I would say that you are two thirds of the way into too many questions here.

[00:15:56] And I love how so much of the clarity can [00:16:00] come from, and as I believe you have done in your later drafts, so much of the clarity can come from how your character feels about it. Well, yeah, and I think that there was a lot missing as far as. How she was feeling and how this impacted her family. How not only impacting her family as far as them feeling some shame about her, a lot of shame about her having to serve on this cruise ship, but also the fact how much it transforms her as a person to start seeing this system that her family built.

[00:16:26] And realizing that she’s somewhat compliant in that a DeMarcus. So she is part of this and is a, is a reason for why this is happening and her realizing that. She may not support something that her family created that she may not support, something that she once believed in that really shakes her very foundation.

[00:16:44] And so I think that that was something that was missing. And just to clarify, like we’re still, um, we’re still editing this. This new one. So I don’t want anyone to think, oh, this is gonna be the perfect version I’m about to read next. But I do think that you can really see like a lot of [00:17:00] the changes and a lot of the imagery and the concrete examples and that some of that information was paired down.

[00:17:06] So I am excited to, um, even when I look at it, I’m, I think about how I’ve seen such a change. In the query itself, but also in me believing in myself. So that’s definitely a positive thing too. Oh my gosh. I literally can’t wait to hear it. Can we just go, I can’t wait. Before we do, I seem to remember, Julia, that there was a moment when I said, okay, you have all this stuff going on.

[00:17:32] It’s all getting equal emphasis. We need the foreground, we need the background, and here are your four main points. I don’t remember what they wear. Yes. That was very important to me too. I’m, I think I even wrote that down and I always take notes and so I’m trying to see if I wrote that down because it was really important having those, for one, we had like 1, 2, 3, and four, and what was going in each of those.

[00:17:58] That was really pivotal as [00:18:00] well, because it really, it helped with the clarity, it helped with the focus and really narrowing down what was the purpose of each paragraph. And imagery too. I remember saying, you don’t want this to be a pamphlet for a cruise, but how cool would it be to go on a magical cruise?

[00:18:14] Oh my gosh. You guys are killing me. I, I feel like you guys are in a special club. Sorry. I know. Julie, you’re joining the club right now. It’s okay. It’s more, well, I mean, because that’s the thing, like the more we’re talking about this, like I was interested. Like, like I was totally, this is a really interesting premise, but you’re right.

[00:18:30] It’s like, it’s like what is the magical way to like feed this to us? Like I’m already like two thirds of the way there. Right. And so I, I, I can’t wait. Okay. Do you wanna go ahead and read the newest Yes. A little nervous. I will. Dear agent. 17 year old Rosaline Roe DeMarcus Enc chant society’s elite at her father’s grand balls by raising spirits of the dead as amorphic Roe has relished her gift since childhood.

[00:18:57] Conjuring rat spirits to nip at bullies heels, and [00:19:00] summoning long lost grandparents to thrill adoring crowds once she passes society’s trial to keep her power. A high stakes trivers test for magic. She plans to hunt dangerous Rob Morphic and make her esteemed family proud. Unbeknownst to row the trial is rigged and she fails.

[00:19:15] She can either lose her magic or exchange summoning rat spirits for dodging living ones as a staff member on the celestial cruise ship while affluent guests sample desserts that taste like treasured memories. Ride Sea Dragons on the top deck and enjoy a starlet theater from floating seats. The Morphic staff scheme to earn guest votes for a coveted retrial.

[00:19:34] Roe struggles as concierge to an unforgiving family who would’ve clamor to attend her father’s galas. But the true horrors lurk after her shift ends at night, the ship and chants crew members to walk off steep balconies and hallway floors. Swallow workers whole confronted with the suffering of most morphic.

[00:19:51] Roe begins to question her family, whose ancestors created the ship, the trial, and the system that put her there. Her only escape is forbidden nights in the theater with a [00:20:00] Vander, a handsome Ariel silks performer who collects guest favor with a magnetic smile and his morphic gift to transform his appearance while learning from his effortless charm.

[00:20:08] To impress even the coldest guest, she’s drawn to the corded muscle of his dancer’s. Within a evander’s strong embrace, RO can let the stress of fighting for a retrial and survival faith that is. Until she’s framed for a guest’s murder. Trial by sea and Spirits is a young adult, dark romantic with haunting mystery elements complete at 91,000 words with serious potential.

[00:20:29] It combines the enchanting dangerous setting in sibling bonds of Emily j Taylor’s, hotel Magee, and the Family Secrets and High Society of Bella Donna by Adeline Grace. This book features a cruise ship setting, found family and a major character with a chronic illness inspired by my own, followed by the bio.

[00:20:45] Did you, I dunno if you saw it. The difference is like, I was like, um, wow. I don’t, it’s so. Good. It’s so good. I don’t know if you saw, but when you were like, until she’s framed for a guess [00:21:00] murder, I was like, yes. Because you did it. No, I didn’t. You did it. Yes. No, I even just feel a difference reading it. I feel like there’s, I get her motivations more.

[00:21:10] I, I feel like each paragraph like goes together now instead of just. Everything’s in paragraph one. Everything’s in paragraph two. Each paragraph I think says a different thing, which I think is important. And when you do that, now I can remember those four points that I gave you because they’re so clear here.

[00:21:25] So we’ve got, she’s magical. She has a test to pass and she doesn’t, now she’s on a cruise ship that’s dangerous. Dealing with the system or family built and also hot aerial silks artists. Those, I believe are the four. Yeah, we didn’t even get the hot aerial silks in the first one. Well, I think you know what it is.

[00:21:41] It’s. It’s like a scaffolding. So yeah, so we’re just like, as learners, we just want it like information scaffold so we can understand exactly what we’re getting into. And this was laid out so perfectly. I was like, I was there and then you twisted the knife and the twist of that knife and, and having [00:22:00] that one line about the murder just sitting on its own out there in white space.

[00:22:05] Just Bri. Brilliant. Like really, really well done. The one line idea was Jessica’s, because in my last draft, oh, Jessica Brilliant. Was only, she’s like, I almost missed it. Julia, are you kidding? I almost missed that completely. That’s kind of important. So having it, it’s very important. It stand on its own was really, really cool and just.

[00:22:23] I think automatically piques your interest, which is all you need. Well, it’s like that moment in movie trailer where like, until dun dun, you know, like you need, you need that. And we love that emphasis of that one. Like until this happens and then you let us and our imaginations fill in the gaps. I. But on the other hand, before that you did such a better job filling in what this all looks like, what it feels like, that it’s pretty, that it’s scary that she’s using magic to do things a typical teen would want to do.

[00:22:51] So those motivations mm-hmm. Are there, showing what the cruise ship looks like, I think is really important. Like you were talking about it being dangerous, but like a floor that swallows [00:23:00] people way more interesting. But Yeah. But there’s also a command, a command of language here. It’s so organized. It’s so organized.

[00:23:10] So that before I wasn’t sure I was truly totally understanding the world. I’m just gonna be honest. I was like, oh, there’s a lot of cool stuff in this query. But it wasn’t like, wow. It was like, I think Jessica’s right. Maybe that’s the questioning, because my brain wasn’t understanding. I was like, you know, but here I’m like, okay, I got it.

[00:23:26] Oh, I got this. Mm-hmm. You know, and that’s like, these are so difficult to do and by just kind of like playing around with the beats of it, it just makes such a difference for a busy, you know, agent. Like, like, like they’re really smart, but you also have to give it to them. Absolutely. And I think for me, a big.

[00:23:47] Thing that I always wanted to keep in mind was if you’re coming to somebody for a critique, you have to be willing to make those revisions. And I think that that’s something I’ve always done with my books as well. Um, when someone gives me a critique that I really believe they’re [00:24:00] correct about, and I also believe in, I implement it and I really do my best to make sure that it’s.

[00:24:05] Different from where I started. So I think that with the query, it was really important to me that when Jessica says, when Jessica said something I really agreed with and wanted to, to transform it was like, okay, I’m gonna work on this until I think it’s different. Like she, um, she suggested parallels last time.

[00:24:19] So, you know, emphasizing at first she’s conjuring the rat spirits to nipt bullies heels, but then when she’s going to the ship, she’s dodging them in the hallways. So, and then, you know, the, the guests were, may have been people that were at her father’s. Parties and that was mentioned in the first line. So I think that just making sure that if you are, when you are working on your career, there are gonna be a lot of revisions.

[00:24:39] So making sure that you’re willing to do that I think is also important. Are you feeling positive about this third one? Like as far as Yes. Everything you liked about it? So I did want to mention a few small things. Yeah, for sure. Um, So you mentioned rat spirits kind of a lot of times, right? In the second line [00:25:00] of the second paragraph, I kind of latched onto the rat imagery without realizing the twist of what you meant there.

[00:25:07] And when you mentioned it later, I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. So then what if you said something like, instead of summoning their spirits at parties, now she’s. Dodging real life rats. So just instead of saying rats multiple times, right? Or, um, no, the rats is fine, but I think if you put the emphasis on the change versus the rats.

[00:25:25] So if you said like, um, instead of using them as a party trick, now she’s dodging real rats on the cruise ship. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s a way to just like put the emphasis on the contrast. ’cause right now, the way that it is laying out now, making. You’re right, you’re right. I see what you’re saying.

[00:25:45] Yes. That makes perfect sense. I, I see what you’re saying now because yeah. I think that is a really cool thing to do. And then, let’s see, I had something else in the beginning. Uh, I was a dazzled by it. I didn’t pick any of these things up. Mm-hmm. I liked, ’cause I know we [00:26:00] had talked about, uh, a high stakes driver’s test for magic.

[00:26:03] I think that is, Very clear. I don’t know. To me it was like a maybe because, okay. I’ll be honest. Caitlin always wants me to ask you about that line ’cause she is not sure about it. She’s not, so, I’m not sure either. So maybe cut that. I feel like it’s a little bit on the lengthy side anyway. So maybe we can just cut that line.

[00:26:21] Or maybe there’s another way you can lead us to that conclusion without actually saying it. So maybe if you say something like, every 16 year old has to show that she can safely operate magic and do a three point turn or something like that. Like, you know, not exactly a three point turn. I like that idea though, every 17 year to.

[00:26:38] Show that. Yeah, I think we can do something like that. And if you borrow some car words, like operate Safely, come to a stop, I don’t know, whatever, whatever they do on driver’s tests, I haven’t driven in like 10 years. Right. It’s been a while. It’s been a while. Um, but yeah, I think, I think then people then, if people, if there’s a way that you can make people be like, oh, it’s like a driver’s test, then [00:27:00] yeah.

[00:27:00] And I think it’s, it’s been a little bit of a pause for Caitlin and I, so I think. Transforming it a little may help. The, the one other question I had for you was, as far as the list of three things, as far as like describing the cruise ship. Mm-hmm. Do you think it’s too much and I should just use two or did you like all three?

[00:27:17] The problem is I love all three, but I’m just wondering, let’s see. Uh, it’s in the second paragraph. Uh, sea Dragons. I would say the sea, sea dragons do the least for me. Okay. I like the, I don’t mind the driver’s test thing. I think it makes it seem kind of fun. It’s very clear. It is very clear. I could go either way on the driver’s test thing, honestly, I, I, I actually, I think it’s, I think it’s a nice addition.

[00:27:37] I don’t know. Okay. Just so, so if you’re playing back and forth, I think some with, some, some without, that’s a great idea. You know? Yeah. You can ab test it. You can ab test it. How, Julie, how do you feel about the list, um, of imagery? I loved it. I thought, I mean, I’m a screenwriting teacher. I have been for the last five years.

[00:27:54] Um, so I, anytime that I can really, like I can organize images in my head like that, I, it [00:28:00] makes it, it grounds it for me. Okay. I like the imagery. I think if you were gonna cut one, I’d get rid of the sea dragons. ’cause those could look so many different ways. It’s so funny because if we were gonna cut one, that’s the one we set as well.

[00:28:11] So, okay. We’re on the same wavelength, but I’m not sure. ’cause I do, I’m in love with the list, but at the same time, just for length and wondering how much they can hold in their like in Yes. At one time. Yes. I think I. For me, because of the fact it’s so organized, I can hold a lot because, love that. ’cause it’s almost like I have a file folder for each chunk and the file folder is like, okay, it starts with this and then it moves to this.

[00:28:32] Yeah. And then it’s this, and then, oh, and this is who this person is. Like it’s really organized well. And I pick, I should always send out, you know, a few like this. And then if I’m not getting any responses, maybe I can mm-hmm. You know, tweak it a little bit and make some changes. I mean, I think you’re gonna get hits with this.

[00:28:49] I think so too. I hope so. Is Kate serious about wanting to be an agent? Ida could mention it, but I think she’s, she works in hotels right now, so she really loves doing that, but she definitely [00:29:00] loves aspects of it for sure. I think it’s just the long, I hate to say it, but you guys work really long hours without breaks, right?

[00:29:07] Yep. I think that’s the only part she wouldn’t like as much, but I could mention it to her that maybe she could send. Yeah, if she, if she has questions, she can get in touch. Actually, that would be really funny if we had like the two of you on to be writer hat, an agent hat for Well, you know, she always says, she’s like, one day, you know, if you’re, you know, an author, she’s like, I could do your events or do your, uh, that kind of stuff.

[00:29:27] ’cause in hotels she’s, she’s kind of like their sales and um, uh, also has some like, working events, so that’s really cute. She’s always, she’s always like, one day, you know, we’ll do this together. Aww. Oh my gosh, that’s so, I’m just so proud of you. Like you took feedback and ran with it. Like, you know, there’s everybody from, like the folks who fight you, when you give you f when you give them feedback, fine, whatever.

[00:29:52] If that’s one how you wanna spend the time, go for it. Um, they’re the people who are like, yes, totally, and then do nothing. Um, there are the people. [00:30:00] Who, um, do a little bit and then there are the people who take the little bit of advice you give them and they just run with it. And that is you. How did you learn how to do that?

[00:30:09] Well, I think with the book I wrote, uh, the book I wrote and queried before this one, I, I actually ended up hiring an editor because I had self edited my previous manuscripts. But I just thought, you know, I can only do what I know how to do. So I went and got an editor and she gave me a developmental edit.

[00:30:27] And I thought, okay. And I took that developmental edit and I completely transformed that book. And I also did a line edit with her for that book, and it taught me so much. So I think that, and every time I would send her back a draft, I only did, you know, one, one send back. But she would just tell me, this is so different.

[00:30:45] And you absolutely implemented everything I did. So I think just learning from that experience, working with an editor for that previous book, I was able to do that in every book. Since. So it’s something that once you learn to do something once and you go, [00:31:00] okay, I know how to do this now, you’re then able to do that for yourself later on.

[00:31:04] So, and not everybody has the means to hire an editor. So maybe that’s just a really great beta reader who. You know, helps you or your sister, who is really um, also reads a ton of young adult fantasy and is able to give me edits. But every time I work on a book, I learn. And I think that if you’re just writing at the same level for every book, then that’s disappointing.

[00:31:25] You want every book to be better. I think just by working at it is how I was able to implement edits and. Feedback. Do you have any advice on handling rejection? Well, I think my advice, it may sound like something everyone’s heard before, but it’s just to keep going because I think that there’s always this thought when you first start out.

[00:31:45] Definitely in middle school and high school. When I was first starting, I had this thought that I’m gonna write a great book and I’m gonna get an agent and I’m gonna get published. But I think when you enter the reality, you realize that a great book isn’t enough. It’s gonna be a great book with lots of [00:32:00] hard work.

[00:32:00] Lots of probably, it may not be your first book that gets you signed with anyone or even just gets you to finish. Some people may not finish their first book. So I think just continuing in that process and realizing that it’s a lot of luck, a lot of timing. Um, I’ve seen incredible right writer friends that maybe they still don’t have an agent, and I’m sitting here like, what?

[00:32:21] How do you not have that? But it’s because it’s just this, this perfect meld of everything, so you just have to wait for your timing. I think that that’s, Some and to be okay when you get discouraged. So I’m my graduate program’s in the mental health field. So I’m definitely learning about having self-compassion, doing your self-care.

[00:32:38] Um, I’m not gonna lie and say that querying can’t, it’s not the most discouraging process. It can be very discouraging. So I definitely think that you should take your time when you do feel really discouraged to step away. This book, I wrote, the book that I’m queering now is actually. The book that I wrote while I was queering my previous one, it was my Distraction project and I got so excited by it that I wrote [00:33:00] the first draft in a month and a half.

[00:33:01] So that’s what Camp Manor Rmo, I think had a lot to do with that. I set a goal of 50,000 words in July, and so I was like, okay, I’m gonna do this. I think that. Just realizing when it’s your time, continuing to work at it and, um, just not giving up even when you’re discouraged, but knowing that it’s okay to take a break.

[00:33:19] I love the idea of almost having little pockets of time when you can focus on something that isn’t your official project. So whether you are writing something new or crocheting a blanket or learning how to cook, or just doing something else that isn’t in that normal linear, how do you do everything as fast and efficiently as possible?

[00:33:40] I think that is a lovely break for us. In terms of taking care of our creative selves. Yeah, I think that continuing to work on the same project can be really helpful, but it’s so important because that’s, that’s the piece of it that keeps us all coming back. No matter how much discouragement you face or how many years you’ve been doing this.

[00:33:57] We love writing. You can’t stay [00:34:00] away. And I think that’s what’s happened for me because I’ve been so dedicated to this since, for, I know I’m young for a long time, for me, um, like since high school that I think it’s tempting sometimes to think, oh, would it be easier not to have this dream? Would it be easier to wanna do something else?

[00:34:14] But the fact that I love writing so much and I love writing books, it just keeps, keeps me coming back. I almost, this is a wild idea. I, and not necessarily a good idea. Um, I almost want When are you planning to send this out? Well, I’m not exactly sure. I don’t have an exact date. I think I’m just gonna see how we feel about this version.

[00:34:37] And then, um, I mean, I hope, I hope by at least next month or like the end of this month, I don’t know. Okay. This is not a good idea at all, but I have to throw it out there. What if, in addition to your previous versions of your queries, we had a live scoreboard of queries sent queries. No, that’s a terrible idea.

[00:34:54] Wouldn’t it be funny if someone did have a life scoreboard? It would be wonderful if it all happened so [00:35:00] fast, but I think it would be really like, oh no, if all we’re receiving is rejections, but also every writer does, right. You know, no matter what, everyone’s going to get rejections. I really think that if it was like a basketball game with a giant scoreboard, and we could see and get a little ping every time you get a request, and we could be like, yeah.

[00:35:20] You know, or you know, if there was aje rejection and we’re like, boo. And then we have like little chants and we’re like stamping in the seats and we’re like, you know, that’s pretty much the extent of my knowledge about basketball. But it would be great if mine too. It would just be so lovely if we could cheer along with you too.

[00:35:36] And I know that, I think finding people to cheer along with you is so important. And I think that’s why I love Manuscript Academy so much. Even if you just go to like, uh, one of the classes at night or one of the live events, everyone in the comments is. So supportive and you see all these people who also have this really difficult dream and they’re also here trying to learn and create this community.

[00:35:56] So I think, and Jessica, I think you too, like [00:36:00] just giving you credit as well, you’ve encouraged me so much. Just offering to do this has been such like a bright spot for me and it’s so powerful to give people in this position hope and someone else who believes in them. So I’m just so thankful for everything.

[00:36:15] You have done as far as just taking time with me and just offering to say, sure, bring this query back again. I’d like to see it again and I can just so see the difference from now and that first one. Well, it’s interesting ’cause it’s like you think about things that give you energy, things that take it away for some reason, talking with you gives me energy back.

[00:36:34] I don’t know how you do that, but like, it’s not everybody. Some people just fight with me the whole time, which again, it’s okay. That’s your choice, but, and I imagine people out there can hear this too. There is something about the way that you talk about work that is really compelling and uplifting and optimistic and it makes me feel like you have the energy to keep going.

[00:36:54] It’s impressive you’ve gotten here already. I know you say, you know, for you it’s a long time to be writing. It is a large percentage of [00:37:00] your life. That you’ve been writing. So I think it’s just very impressive that you are so willing to be like, okay, here’s the feedback. Let’s take it and run with it. And honestly just the hope and open-mindedness of like, let’s try this and see how it works out.

[00:37:14] But it’s worth a try. Thank you. And absolutely. Yeah. I love anytime I get feedback that I feel like like’s gonna make something better. That’s why editing’s so fun, because you get to look at this draft and go, I get to make this better. And every time you read it, it’s going to be better. It may not be perfect, but it’s gonna get better.

[00:37:30] I think if the, for the agents out there, I think Julia is the full package. Like you are confident, you’re well spoken, you try hard, you believe in the process, you ha you believe in revision, you’re positive. I mean, there’s so many indicators and I guess I’ve never really done that. Like what are the indicators that, that you see, I’m still gonna put this to Jessica.

[00:37:53] What are, are those like, is there anything I’m missing as an indicator of what you would like to see in a client? Oh, it’s all there. [00:38:00] Yeah. I get the general sense that like, I think Julia is resilient. I think that is a huge part of it. I think it’s that no matter what happens, say the submission process puts you, your agent and a your book in a box, it’s gonna shake that box.

[00:38:15] Everywhere. And we need to know you’re not gonna get broken in shipping. So I just get the feeling that whatever happens to that box, you know, u p s drops it down the stairs, I think you’re going to be okay. And that to me is like a really good sign in terms of, well, lack of stress for me too, right? Like I want my clients.

[00:38:34] To, well, I guess just looking ahead, I imagine what the conversations would be like, right? Mm-hmm. And I think with Julia, it would always be fun. It would be very little fighting about edits. It would be very, okay. It would be very little. No, I didn’t mean that. I meant that like you just seem to understand what I’m talking about, which is lovely.

[00:38:54] And I’m not saying you’d have that with every single agent. Like you’d have to find the right one to have those conversations with. But [00:39:00] also, you know, I feel like. You’re starting from a place where hard things can happen and you’ll be okay. Mm-hmm. And that I think, is very attractive in a client because of course I want my clients to be okay, but I’m always going to worry if I don’t have that sense going in.

[00:39:17] I think for me too, one of the things that keeps me feeling more resilient is the fact that I’m somebody who I’m always thinking of the next idea. So like I just, I don’t know if you got, you probably already know, obviously, but I just got the Save the Cat. For like young adult books. ’cause I’ve always used Save the Hat, but I just got the young adult version and so, um, you know, I’m already like outlining my next one.

[00:39:39] So I think it’s just that process of like, okay, if this one doesn’t work, I’m gonna write the next one and I’m gonna write the next one. I’m gonna write the next one. So, and I’m always excited to do that even though I may not always be excited about queering again, I’m always excited to write and polish the next one.

[00:39:53] So I think that’s what keeps me going. Even when. Things get difficult. Like what is your strategy for, [00:40:00] um, setting this query out? Are you gonna do batches of 10? Are you gonna do a huge list? Are you gonna start with your dream agent? Are you going to, like, how is this gonna work for you? Yeah, so I’m definitely a batches person more for even my mental state than, um, even necessarily a strategy purpose.

[00:40:16] I think it’s just, you know, I can only handle so much rejection at once, and I think it still gives me an opportunity that if somebody did have time to give me feedback, I could still implement that. So I’m definitely a batch as. Person, Caitlyn and I create the list together and Caitlyn usually does like the initial research and then I go through and because it doesn’t stress her out at all to look at it.

[00:40:35] So she does like kind of that initial path of who she really likes and who basically everyone on manuscript wishlist that kind of is looking for something that I might be able to provide and then I go, Through and kind of narrow it down. I think it’s honestly, especially now, also just seeing who’s open.

[00:40:52] I think that that kind of determines who I’m gonna submit to as well. I also, I love the term dream agent because it’s just [00:41:00] so exciting, but I think it’s kind of hard as someone who doesn’t know those agents or you don’t know just because they did something for someone else if they’re necessarily going to mesh with you.

[00:41:09] I think that, I don’t know if I necessarily have a dream agent list more, probably more of just a hopeful list and then see if we mesh later on. But yeah, that’s kind of my, my strategy. I think that a big piece of that strategy is going to just stay on top of myself to make sure that I am sending this out soon.

[00:41:27] Because I think it’s, you know, I have this philosophy that it’s like when you don’t send it out, when you haven’t sent it out yet, anything can happen. And once you set it out, the reality kind of starts to set back in. So I think I’m holding on to the dreamy fantasy world just a little bit longer, but, I think it’s really time to get in the reality.

[00:41:44] ’cause it can take so long to get an agent that if I don’t start now, nothing bad can happen, but nothing good can happen either. So that’s kind of what I’m thinking. Yeah. As you go on the journey. I think that’s such a smart way to look at it. And I agree. Some people are like, this is the agent, this is the agent for me.

[00:41:59] Right. Then [00:42:00] they meet with them sometimes and they’re like, I don’t know, our vibes didn’t match up. I think it is such like an energetic exchange. So knowing, um, How you wanna feel with your agent, you know, along with sales and everything else because it is a partnership. Absolutely. Yeah. And I appreciate that you’re open to the possibility of having a conversation that will change how you feel about that agent will change how you feel about where your work is going, how you’re going to edit.

[00:42:29] I’m just excited for you. I wish I could just be like a cute little fly on the wall listening to you having these chats with these agents and like, I’m so curious about, will you get along with everybody? Probably. Will someone suggest something that’s awful? Maybe, probably not. You know, like I’m just. I’m so curious about how all of that is gonna go.

[00:42:46] I really hope to be able to give you some good news, and I, I would love to just get that feeling of excitement of just seeing a full request or seeing someone else who’s excited about the book. So I, I’m excited too. I think that doing this [00:43:00] process with you has made me much more excited than I would’ve been if.

[00:43:02] First of all, the query wouldn’t have been as good. But second of all, I think I just wouldn’t have had as much hope and excitement going forward. And it, it is nice to feel like I have you, Jessica, and you Julie, like also rooting for me. That’s a wonderful feeling. And if you ever did know anyone that was looking for something like this, definitely let me know.

[00:43:20] But either way, I’m gonna keep you in touch for sure. And let you know how it’s all going. It sounds like Caitlin will find him anyway. I know, right? Right. I could only imagine what your dating life is like. Wingman. That’s funny. Yes. Nope. Yes. Caitlin’s like, I found his stepsister. She doesn’t like him. Oh, so funny.

[00:43:42] That’s amazing. Wait, where’s Caitlin now? It’s Calin. Oh no. Caitlin’s at work. I wish it could happen, but no, she’s at work. She loves her job. But I will say right before this call, she was like, Julia, you can call me and talk through some of the questions if you want. And we talked about it. So she is, she’s [00:44:00] very much a part of everything I do and is.

[00:44:02] Honestly the best person in my life, so, oh, that’s so nice. Well keep us posted on everything. Hopefully we’ll have a launch podcast for you. You know when Thisbut Yes. Yes. When your debut is finally out, so Yep. Can’t wait to give us some copies to those audience members. Woo. In the meantime, if you happen to be an agent, we’re looking for ya.

[00:44:24] Fantasy, and you happen to notice that Julia is awesome. Yeah. You can ask us to put you in touch with her. We’re happy to do that. Thank you, Julia. I’m just so preemptively happy for you. Thank you so much. No matter what happens with this book or this process, I’m really proud of everything I’ve learned and everything that I’ve done to get this query from where it was in the beginning to where it is now.

[00:44:47] I’ve definitely learned a lot. Julia, I’m so happy for you. Please, please, please send an email when you’re like, okay, I sent it out. You can also trick your brain. You know, a way to trick your brain if you don’t wanna send something. Mm-hmm. You can put it in your Gmail [00:45:00] and schedule it for some time in the future, and if you don’t come up with some reason that you shouldn’t send it, It just kind of quietly goes out.

[00:45:07] Mm-hmm. That’s a great, I it’s kind of like, uh, in therapy we give people homework. You’re kind of giving me homework right now. Yeah. So do this. Make sure you, make sure you stay on top of it. And I, that’s really important. ’cause I can push things off a bit just because, you know, I’m a little bit afraid of the, the result, but I think that that’s a really good plan.

[00:45:24] No, I know what you mean. Until you do it, you feel like anything could happen. Yeah. And when you start doing it, The first word block, you’re probably gonna be like, yeah. It’s just your heart drops a little and then you just, you really have to buckle down and just keep going. Yeah. I think sometimes like make a grid and give yourself, okay, if I send out five of these, I’m gonna do this.

[00:45:43] Yes. Right. And so it’s almost like a behavior modification. Exactly. I love that. I’m gonna do this, but then today I’m gonna do, I’m gonna go. The pet shop, I’m gonna pet these dogs and I’m gonna like, whatever. Definitely distraction a big deal. But it’s, it’s like any way we can trick our brain to, for [00:46:00] positive habits, because like in the end, a rejection doesn’t really matter.

[00:46:05] It hurts, but like you’re safe. Yeah. Like you, you know what I mean? It’s, it’s inevitable. It is. It’s just part of the business. So it is, and I think it’s one of those things where you can’t even, you can’t possibly work with everyone. So it’s like if you get 20, Caitlyn always makes that joke. She’s like, Julia, can you imagine if you got multiple people interested?

[00:46:22] She’s like, you’d be having a whole other problem. So, you know, you’re having to decide. So I think it’s almost, you’ll, I’ll find the right person, I think. Yeah. But the more, but that’s, the better your query, the more you opt to have that problem. So, You know, we all, well, I’ll welcome that problem. I’ll be honest.

[00:46:38] I’ll welcome it. If you get stuck with that problem, drop us a line. Happy to walk you through it. Yes, I would appreciate that so much. Thank you both for everything. You’re welcome. And I’ll definitely I’ll, I’ll send an email when I send the first ones out just to. Keep you both updated. Yes. Good. Yeah, so you can schedule that to us too.

[00:46:55] Be like, Hey, here’s my scheduled email. My scheduled link submissions are going [00:47:00] out. Yay. And then we’ll cheer for you from home even if we don’t have a scoreboard. Right. Julia, thank you so much. Thank you. We cannot wait to hear more. Me too. Okay. Bye everyone. Bye now. Bye. We are so glad that you joined us.

[00:47:16] And as always, we appreciate your feedback. Just head on over to the iTunes store and let’s know what you think. And not only helps us make this podcast be the best it can be, but it also affects our ratings within the iTunes platform. We’d love to hear from you. If you’re feeling brave and want to submit your page for our First Pages podcast, you can send it to academy@manuscriptwishlist.com with First Pages podcast in the subject line.

[00:47:42] We’d also just love to hear from you. And if you’d like to learn more about the Manuscript Academy and everything we have to offer, just jump on over to manuscript academy.com.